Trans Women Should Be Allowed In Women Only Spaces

EarlyWalker source please

Incidentally, of the 60 serving time for sexual offences:

27 were convicted of rape (plus a further five of attempted rape)
13 were convicted of possessing, distributing or making indecent images of children
13 were convicted of sexual assault or attempted sexual assault
Nine were convicted of causing or inciting a child under 16 to engage in sexual activity
Seven were convicted of sexual activity with a child
Seven were convicted of indecent assault or gross indecency

From a FOI response from MoJ reported here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

No one is trying to present all trans people in a bad light. Stop misrepresenting what women are saying.

Allowing men to self ID and use women only spaces makes them mixed sex and unsuitable for women.
I don't care that you cant understand that. Its not our problem.

Trans people and their supporters need to campaign for a third space, or make the men's mixed sex.

Much appreciated, everybodypuuuuulllll

TAs will throw an accusation out that the trans stats might not all be transwomen, they might be transmen. I read a justifcation for they're all transwomen somewhere but I can't remember where now. I think it was probably Fair Play for Women and based on the (male) prisons they're in
Just to clarify on this point, 34 were confirmed to be Transwoman not 60.

Is anyone else shocked at the figures of 1 in 2,400 men in the UK are sex criminals in prison?

That's not saying 1 in 2,400 have ever committed a sex crime. It's saying, for every 2,400 men in the UK, one of them will be actively serving time, right now, for a sex crime. Given the low rate of reporting and the low rates of conviction, that points to - what seems to me to be - a very high number number of sex criminals walking about in society.

Really depressing

To clarify eresh your feelings are not what matter, I don’t care what you think of me, facts are what matter and when you twist statistics (intentionally or not) it is creating your own facts to suit your view and that should not go unchallenged. Unfortunately, in a place like FWR it does go unchallenged as it suits your narrative and that leads to emabarasing situations like the OP describes where the data she presented to back up her narrative was effectively laughed out.
I’m not mysogonistic at all, I just don’t agree with the way some people try and paint all transgender people in a bad light.
‘Whataboutery’ is code on FWR for ‘I can’t answer your question’ I’m not an idiot.
No one is forcing anyone to do anything, I won’t be manipulated with emotive speech to shut me up.

Scrumplestiltskin here are the sources:

Trans prisoners = 60. This is a Government stat from the Ministry of Justice in response to Freedom of Information requests, and reported here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42221629

The same article says there are 125 trans prisoners but points out that this figure may be an underestimate, as it doesn't cover everyone in prison and may not include eg those on shorter sentences or who didn't declare they're trans. The article points that out as it's trying to refute Fair Play for Women's prior estimate of 41% of transwomen prisoners being sex offenders. But when we use the known number of sex offenders against population size, it means the 60 is a minimum - there may be more trans sex offenders who didn't declare themselves as trans / didn't do the MoJ survey.

TAs will throw an accusation out that the trans stats might not all be transwomen, they might be transmen. I read a justifcation for they're all transwomen somewhere but I can't remember where now. I think it was probably Fair Play for Women and based on the (male) prisons they're in.

Rates of male / female sex offenders in UK prisons.

These come from the download Prison population: 31 March 2018 on this page. www.gov.uk/government/statistics/offender-management-statistics-quarterly-october-to-december-2017

However I've just realised I probably shouldn't be using the 125 stat for women, as that's from the end of 2017 - but the only stats we have on trans prisoners (above) are from the beginning of 2017, so we should probably be using a figure from the same same period so it's a fair comparison (not that it makes any difference to the overall picture).

2017 Q1:
Male sex offenders: 13,132
Female sex offenders: 114

For completeness, here are the most up to date figures:

2018 Q1:
Male sex offenders: 13,431
Female sex offenders: 131

Both male and female sex offences are rising. However we don't know how many of the female figures are actually transwomen. It's perfectly possible that the rise in female offending is actually showing a rise in male sex offenders IDing as women.

For comment on sex offenders and other crimes, see The MoJ's Offender Management Statistics Bulletin, England and Wales

Sex offenders
The rise in the long determinate sentenced population is in line with the increasing number of sentenced sex offenders. As at 30 June 2018 there were 13,580 prisoners serving sentences for sexual offences, which represented 19% of the sentenced prison population.

The number of prisoners serving immediate custodial sentences for sexual offences is now at its highest level since at least 2002. This is consistent with the latest ONS 'Crime in England and Wales' bulletin which reports on the number of sexual offences recorded by the police in the year ending June 2018.

Full bulletin here: assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/729211/OMSQ-2018-Q1.pdf

I'm not harassing you, just bored of your ridiculous whataboutery and internalised misogyny on every thread.

People who support forcing women to share spaces with males of any sort when naked or otherwise vulnerable are apologists. Whatever silly arguments they employ to do so. Women in prison are especially vulnerable.

Again learn to read as that’s not what I’ve said. It’s not relevant to this thread so don’t try and start an argument. If you’ve got anything constructive to add to what I’ve actually posted, please go ahead. Otherwise, stop harassing me everywhere I post. Thanks.

You've commented plenty on a number of other threads. And it's quite clear what you think by the "oh we can't possibly segregate because it's like racism" posts.

I didn't @ you.

This. It's incredibly simple, Earlywalker where have I even commented my opinion on the issue on this thread? The OPs question was ‘where are your facts and figures from that support this’ I’ve simply said what the facts don’t present, as some people may not be aware of what they are using to back up their ‘facts’
So learn to read or don’t @ me when it’s not relevant.

The Californian study giving info on trans is based on a prison that housed mainly vulrenable men (such as trans) and relates to 1980, does it not?

No woman or girl should have to share a space with any male where both or either are naked without her freely given and informed consent . Anyone who opposes this is an apologist for rape culture.

This. It's incredibly simple, Earlywalker.

everybodypuuuuulllll great data! Do you have a source? If so I'd love a link

@Earlywalker I looked at the stats for California prisons as they had the most comprehensive data available online - I also didn't cherry pick trans natal males I looked at the stats for non trans females and non trans males too. So even if there were bias in terms of where someone is imprisoned (and they have multiple prisons in all states in the US,) that bias would be equally reflected and thus neutralised for non trans females and males, afaik. So I don't think your claim of skewed data holds up, quite frankly.
And honestly I am unaware of how the data as present paints transgender males in a bad light? Except for in sexual offences they trended toward slightly less violent crimes than non trans males, or lined up fairly equally to non trans male crime. Why is that painting them in a bad light?

If you're aware of more comprehensive data, please point me towards it, or find and analyse some yourself. Until then, I don't think you can really dismiss my data. Although yes I agree it could be more in depth.

In regards to your comments about race - most crime is intraracial (so committed against the same race,) and often very situational - eg. Black and Hispanic males may commit more crime because of poverty, and gang membership, and getting into confrontational or risky situations. That's without going into all the other aspects, such as BAME males getting far harsher sentences than white males for the same crimes, and thus becoming institutionalised, etc.

If you want to show the difference in violence for TW and women using something other than tbe Swedish study then looking at conviction rates for sex offenders is illuminating.

In the UK there are:

13,000 male sex criminals in prison
128 female sex criminals in prison*
60 transwomen sex criminals in prison

Already, given the massive difference in population size, it's plain to see transwomen are more likely to be sex criminals than women - but how likely?

If we use 32 million as population estimate for women and 31 million for male, then we get the following:

1 in 250,000 women in the UK are sex criminals in prison
1 in 2,400 men in the UK are sex criminals in prison

How do transwomen compare? It's hard to get an exact figure given there aren't reliable stats on population size, but using a generous estimate of 300,000* it works out as:

1 in 5,000 transwomen are sex criminals in prison

There's been a bit of guesswork in that number, which has been generous to transwomen and the number could be much nearer to men's in reality. But even if it is "only" 1 in 5,000 - that's plainly much nearer 1 in 2,400 and nothing like 1 in 250,000.

Transwomen's offending profile for sex crime, therefore, is similar to men's and nothing like women's.

Note - this argument is saying nothing about whether TWAW or not. When they counter with TWAW you can say - I'm not making any comment about whether TWAW or not. This is about safeguarding and I'm simply comparing offending rates and looking at relative risks of different groups.

*some of these may be transwomen, it's not clear- but let's assume they're all natal women

** trans lobby orgs say transgender people are about 1% - but this includes not only TW but also transmen, non binary people, cross dressers etc - it's a pretty big umbrella! Would be good to get a more reliable estimate of numbers of transwomen - if anyone knows one?

Stating anyone who identifies as a woman, applies to transwoman and not dangerous predators pretending to be a woman

How are women supposed to know the difference?

There are 3 reasons why women should not be forced to share intimate space (a space where people are in a full or partially naked) with transwomen

1. Many will fine it humiliating, irrespective of whether the male in question poses a risk or not. There is a strong taboo in nearly all cultures against nudity except in single sex spaces. To expect all women to simply stop feeling ashamed/embarrassed/humiated just because you believe TWAW is rank mysogeny and shoes that you think the feelings of natal women JUST DONT MATTER.

2 . It will make it easier for pests to commit offfences. Sex offenders need opportunity to offend. This will make it soooo much easier as it will be hard or impossible to challenge any male in a woman’s space.

1. It appears that the ‘This never happens’ brigade have been proven to be well and truely wrong . I think it’s time itcwas accepted that males identify as women for different reasons and not all of them are benign as far as women are concerned . First it was ‘there’s no evidence ‘ and then it was ‘that evidence won’t do’.

No woman or girl should have to share a space with any male where both or either are naked without her freely given and informed consent . Anyone who opposes this is an apologist for rape culture.

Also, the poster above clearly does not know how prisons work. To be housed in prison in California does not mean at all that you are from California, most people are not sentenced to their local prison, especially if there’s a reason to go to a specific prison like in the above case study. I don’t even want to respond to these things anymore, it’s too try hard to paint trans people in a bad light and there’s just no need.

By your own stats Hispanic people make up 28% ish of people in prison, shall we make them sit at the back of the bus Incase they attack us? You can’t treat minority groups like some sort of statistic to exclude. It’s not right.

The above stats are a load of crap. Sorry but you can’t base what percentage of trans people are sex offenders by one prison in the middle of California that caters specifically to vulrenable men. It’s an extremely unreliable way to get data and I didn’t respond because it didn’t really dignify a response as the poster who wrote it will know they are twisting statistics.

Stats for trans natal males (transwomen,) taken from here unless otherwise stated:

ucicorrections.seweb.uci.edu/files/2013/06/Transgender-Inmates-in-CAs-Prisons-An-Empirical-Study-of-a-Vulnerable-Population.pdf

ucicorrections.seweb.uci.edu/files/2013/06/A-Demographic-Assessment-of-Transgender-Inmates-in-Mens-Prisons.pdf

Stats for non-trans natal males, and natal females, taken from here, unless otherwise stated:

www.cdcr.ca.gov/Reports_Research/Offender_Information_Services_Branch/Annual/Census/CENSUSd0812.pdf

Registered sex offender:

Natal females - 1.3%
Trans natal males - 20.5%
Non-trans natal males - 14.2%

So trans natal males are notably more likely to be sex offenders than non-trans natal males, and FAR higher than natal females (which discounts the argument that trans natal males are labelled sex offenders for prostitution, or the natal female rates would be far higher.)

Ethnicity:

Natal Female
Hispanic - 29.4%
White - 36.4%
Black - 29.2%

Trans natal males
Hispanic - 28.3%
White - 28.0%
Black - 34.6%

Non-trans natal males
Hispanic - 39.6%
White - 25.3%
Black - 29.1%

Of the major race/ethnicity groups, it's interesting to see that black trans natal males have notably higher rates of imprisonment than whites and Hispanics, compared to non-trans natal males where Hispanics have the highest incarceration rates by far, and natal females where whites have the highest incarceration rate.

As for sentencing, trans natal males have stats that match non-trans natal males, and differ greatly from natal females'.

Sentencing:

Natal females
Lifer - 8.6%
Life w/o parole - 1.4%
Not a lifer - 91.4

Trans natal males
Lifer - 13.3%
Life w/o parole - 2.4%
Not a lifer - 84.3%

Non-trans natal males
Lifer - 13.7%
Life w/o parole - 2.3%
Not a lifer - 83.6%

The same is true with the type of offence - trans natal male offences are more property focused than crimes against persons', but still align more closely to non-trans natal males, than natal females.

Offence type:

Natal females
Crimes against persons - 32.9%
Property - 34.5%
Drug - 27.2%
Other Crimes - 5.4%

Trans natal males
Crimes against persons - 49.8%
Property - 30.2%
Drug - 16.3%
Other - 3.7%

Non-trans natal males
Crimes against persons - 54.8%
Property - 18.8%
Drug - 17.8%
Other Crimes - 8.5%

Percentage of total demographic incarcerated by population:

Natal females - 0.06%
Trans natal males - 0.89%
Non-trans natal males - 0.86%

Trans natal males have an even higher offence rate that non-trans natal males, which may be partially influenced by higher rates of poverty amongst (particularly Black and Hispanic,) trans natal males.

As of the 2010 census, California had a population of 37,254,518, of which females were 50.3%, which makes the number of women18,739,022. There were 11,408 women housed in California in 2008.

As of the 2010 census, California had a population of 37,254,518, of which males were 49.7%, which makes the number of men 18,515,495. There were 159,753 men housed in prisons in California in 2008.

The estimates of the total transgender population in the US, between 2008 and now, vary between 0.38%, and more recently as much as 1.3%. Recently the blog Culturally Bound Gender investigated the stats, and found that in actuality, the number of trans natal males in the US is 0.2%* of males, which makes the number of trans natal males in California approximately 37,030. According to the source studies, there were at least 332 trans natal males in prisons in California in 2008.

• culturallyboundgender.wordpress.com/2018/11/21/no-there-havent-always-been-this-many-trans-people-no-theyre-not-just-coming-out-more-because-its-more-acceptable-now-heres-the-evidence/