Trans Women Should Be Allowed In Women Only Spaces

Some interesting points Earlywalker but I see it all from a different angle, which is why discussions like this are great. Personally as a woman I’m not feeling scared but I am getting flipping angry with all the nonsense being spouted about transphobic women and demands to provide evidence as to why men in women’s spaces pose a danger. I consider those supporting self id to be misogynistic with a disregard for the safety of women and I can’t take any of themseriously. When self id supporters equally prioritise the safety of women as they do the rights of men to become “women” I might start to care about their opinions.

Just saw you weren’t talking to me but my answer still standS!

Yes I think if self ID became law, offences committed by ’transwoman’ would be considerably higher - why else would I be against it?

R.e the difference between the 2 sexes, from what I gather (this is off the top of tiny head):
There are 125 trans prisoners (serving long sentences) within the UK.
100 MTF 25 MTF
With regards to the crimes the only concrete answer is that 60 of these are serving for sexual offences, the only concrete data we have is that 35 of these were born Male.

The only ‘evidence’ Of sexual offences amongst transwoman are these 35 cases. If the estimated amount of transpeople in the UK is around 600,000, you are saying it’s an 80/20 split but to put it more in your favour let’s calculate it 50/50.

So that’s 35 confirmed out of 300,000 which is 0.01%.

There are a few reasons why this is not even reliable.

1. we don’t know the numbers of transgender people in the UK
2. these are ‘self identifed’, I wouldn’t really judge a rapist in prison when faced with a possibility of spending his term with woman to accurately declare his gender. 3)There may well be a lot more transgender sexual offenders that haven’t shown up in this data.

Until there is concrete data to draw from, there is no point speculating a risk as that will always create a bias from whichever side you want it too.

I used these own stats recently to illustrate a point of manipulating statistics to make it show that transgender people are less likely to offend than woman.

I don’t think Self ID is a good idea for anyone, I struggle to see who actually benefits from it. It’s caused genuine transgender people to be ridiculed and have accusations thrown, it’s caused woman to be scared and feel vulrenable and the only people that seem to be benefiting are the TRA who probably will end up suing someone and having the last laugh, they also seem to be the only ones with a voice in all of this.
I am against Self ID completely but I’m not against the current GRC criteria. I think the constant pushing for trans to be seen as dangerous is unfair, transpeople are not dangerous. People who identify as a woman in order to be preadatory are dangerous, that is nothing to do with transgender people but everything to do with self ID. As weetabix put earlier, all the rest is just drawing attention away from Self ID as the only people ‘fighting it’ start to appear prejudice and no one takes you seriously.

• but the figures are staggeringly different for the two sexes.

As are they every time anyone cares to look, anywhere.

Funny that. It all goes back to what Aspie said earlier. Quite simple, without the need for all the sophistry, whataboutery and noise generally in these arguments.

It’s up to those advocating change to provide conclusive data.

Arguably, this should have been done earlier when women's rights were first attacked and it went under the radar of most people. But as that didn't really happen, it needs investigation now.

I tried looking at your table but on my phone it is very blurry (May just be my eyes) so I don’t really know what it says...
I think it says there were only 2 transmen convicted of any crime which we know is not true from the MOJ and FPFW analysis. So if that’s the case (and I may be wrong as I’m reading through blurred lines!) then I’d seriously doubt the credibility of where the results came from.

If by being belligerent or offensive you just turn people against you and your argument what will have been achieved? The important argument against self ID is just lost amongst the other noise.

YY

I don't care that you cant understand that. Its not our problem.

And yet really it is your problem because you need more people to get on board and support the argument, surely? You need MPs to see the problems with self ID in order to stop the proposal going through.

If by being belligerent or offensive you just turn people against you and your argument what will have been achieved? The important argument against self ID is just lost amongst the other noise.

Eresh it’s so funny that you call me boring but most of your contributions seem to be copy and pasting what other people have said and saying ‘yes yes’ or ‘this’

No one is trying to present all trans people in a bad light. Stop misrepresenting what women are saying.

Allowing men to self ID and use women only spaces makes them mixed sex and unsuitable for women.
I don't care that you cant understand that. Its not our problem.

Trans people and their supporters need to campaign for a third space, or make the men's mixed sex.

YY

Until the government compile proper data on the number of trans prisoners and their crimes surely attempts to draw any conclusions are really only going to be "best guesses"?

The small number that you are currently identifying - were they trans at the time of committing their offence or did they identify once in prison? Given that one argument is that some men might self ID only in order to access the female estate then how can you be sure that they can be used in statistics to draw any conclusions about the trans community as a whole?

Are trans men included within the number of trans prisoners? Are trans women included in the number of female prisoners?

The data seems to be so muddied that I'm not sure that many conclusions can be drawn at present.

UpstartCrow
That is the exact opposite of what I’ve said.

Then why do you keep demanding people provide you with statistics that you know don't exist?

Their crimes are recorded by their declared sex. They aren't recorded by their natal sex, or as crimes committed by trans people and you know that.
Not sure if You’re talking to me or what you mean? If you hold a GRC (I believe there are around 4000 GRC holders in the uk) then yes it’s recorded in your reassigned sex. I believe there is no data or statistics available on GRC holders though.

Trans people and their supporters need to campaign for a third space, or make the men's mixed sex.

This is where I can't understand the argument. Trans men are completely ignored and so only half an argument is presented.

IF trans women use the women's toilets THEN trans men will use the men's, thus the men's WILL be mixed sex (if that's how you want to view it). These arguments are only ever phrased as though only trans women exist.

Fir what it's worth I think the only way forward is to develop a 3rd space but one that is for use by anyone and everyone.

I understand the safety or privacy concerns that are expressed, especially around self ID, but I think that these on their own are strong enough arguments. I honestly cannot understand all the other extraneous arguments eg get men to budge over for once, make the men's mixed sex etc etc.

I think the danger in conflating different arguments is that you actually turn many potential supporters away from your argument.

Their crimes are recorded by their declared sex. They aren't recorded by their natal sex, or as crimes committed by trans people and you know that.

Allowing men to self ID and use women only spaces makes them mixed sex and unsuitable for women.
I agree with that, I disagree with self ID and think it’s a stupid Idea. This thread is about the statistics though. Not feelings and opinions.

source please
MOJ or your bible, Fair play for woman. From FPFW website -

For data protection reasons the MoJ would only provide exact figures on individual prisons if there were more than five transgender prisons housed there. Nevertheless, even this limited data confirms that there are at least 34 male-born transgender prisoners in just four of the specialist sex offender prisons.

We reported an additional ten in the remaining sex offender prisons that the MoJ did not provide figures for (because they house fewer than 5 trans prisoners) making a total of 44 male-born transgender prisoners. We stand by those figures despite the MoJ’s reluctance to verify them.

fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

The Californian study giving info on trans is based on a prison that housed mainly vulrenable men (such as trans) and relates to 1980, does it not?

Yes, the stats are older, unfortunately. However as I used the one medium security prison's number of trans people compared to the estimated total number of unincarcerated trans people in California, not taking into account the trans people potentially in any other prisons, I think that works out very fairly. The stats for non trans people had to be taken from elsewhere, and were state-wide not just one prison.

Scrumplestiltskin, damn, I've just realised the MoJ stats are England and Wales only, but I've compared with UK population.

I'll need to recalculate. Got to go out now, will be back later and will do that - unless anyone else beats me to it!

It's a simple calculation - just need to find a decent population estimation for women and men in England & Wales in 2017, then divide population by number of sex offenders for each group.