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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tomorrows Mail on Sunday Front Page

239 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/11/2018 22:23

School with 17 children changing gender

Tomorrows Mail on Sunday Front Page
OP posts:
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HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 09:16

And I'll caveat that with I am not generally a DM reader but I applaud any media that takes on this juggernaut, knowing the possible consequences.

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 09:14

Slightly off the point, but interesting that the Mail on Sunday chose to give over its front page to this in the middle of the Brexit crisis. *

I like to think they've done it so that the BBC is forced to put it on its site and to discuss it on TV.

The Mail brought us the Jess Bradley story. It does not shy away from tackling the issues that others are too afraid, too pc to talk about.

hackmum · 18/11/2018 09:08

This is a really excellent article - it lays out the issues in a real clear and thorough way. Well done, Sanchez Manning - I hope her bosses are giving her some acknowledgement of the work she's done on this issue.

I also wonder if this finally could be the wake-up call we've all been waiting for. This is something we've all been talking about for the past year or more, but at last a mainstream newspaper is taking it seriously. Brilliant to see it on the front page.

Needmoresleep · 18/11/2018 09:08

Slightly off the point, but interesting that the Mail on Sunday chose to give over its front page to this in the middle of the Brexit crisis.

I assume they calculate that people who actually buy a Sunday paper, as opposed to reading it on line, will be more attracted by this story than the Brexit mess. Which implies a lot of resonance in middle England/Wales. (The Mail has a seperate edition in Scotland?)

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 09:01

Piers Morgan joins in;
NZBirder (@NZBirder) Tweeted:
RT @piersmorgan: Bloody ridiculous - what the hell are we doing to our children???? t.co/9eDJNtQuOs twitter.com/piersmorgan/status/1064079329024507904?s=17

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 18/11/2018 08:57

'Young people and old people are now able to express themselves as they know who they are and they can understand it.'

Unless they are a lesbian aka a female who only fancies women and then they had better keep their mouth shut if they don't want to be called a bigot.

RedToothBrush · 18/11/2018 08:57

I would love to see a geographical breakdown of children identifying as trans.

Im not sure it would help in political terms. The interpretation would be that these are merely more accepting areas and more must be done in areas it wasn't happening because these areas are prejudice. I was told this over ten years ago, to explain away clustering which was known about even then.

In research terms its necessary but its highly sensitive information which could be used for targeting if it is indeed a social contagion.

My sibling came out in his mid twenties but they were part of a cluster which originated from school. They never moved away from home and all had social skills issues. One was in the same class at school and was known to our family since age 8. They had very homophobic parents too.

It's long been one of the things that has led my concerns. It never sat right.

I grew up somewhere which couldn't be more liberal, white Middle class if it tried.

Time and again I keep hearing the same things. The same pattern.

I need the research to be done, for my own peace of mind and to put my long term fears and concerns, to bed once and for all if nothing else.

I do not see how it can do harm, if it increases understanding. We either find out it is social contagion once and for all, or we can provide better support and normalise it.

Until its done, I know that I will never fully be on board as that nagging feeling will always be there. Its pretty clear I'm not alone in this.

As for mimmy prattling on about criminal offences, it would be an offence not to raise concerns that could result in harm to children too. That's the thing with whistleblowing, you can in certain circumstances, raise concerns if you have a motivation which is in the public interest.

We should always encourage a climate in which whistleblowing is understood as being fair, proportionate and legitimate if handled with care. This is a fundamental of safeguarding. Its also lawful. The main criteria being a concern that something has the potential to cause harm to others.

Protection for whistleblowers was original embedded in The Public Interest Disclosure Act 1998 but this was found to be lacking because the cavet of what public interest meant was woolly. However this has changed somewhat in recent years and there have been a lot of effort made to make sure anyone who has concerns reports them and is obliged to report them.

Unfortunately individuals do lose their whistleblowing rights if they go to the media. But again there are caveats here too. The media can refuse to name a source. And the act of going to the press offers its own protections. A newspaper is unlikely to publish a whistleblowing story unless they feel it in the public interest to do so. Putting it on the front page kind of makes a big point too.

Normal whistleblowing procedure is to report within the system. The entire point with this story is that it has become impossible to do so. Like was the case with North Staffs.

It has to be stressed that the reason this is on the front page of the newspaper is because of the concern that normal whistleblowing protocols are not working and this in itself needs scrutiny.

So Mimmy can spontaneously combust all she bloody well likes. It's not a good look and all it does is serve to reinforce the point that the Mail is highlighting about there being a culture in which concerns can not be raised.

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 18/11/2018 08:57

And why are the kids transing now mostly female to male whilst the older transpeople seem to be male to female?

Because this:

I really wish that it was possible to identify out of being treated like a female in society.

I’m fairly sure I would be calling myself non-binary if I was a teenager right now. I’d see it as opting out of the gender bollocks foisted upon me because of my sex.

If only it were that easy.

ChattyLion · 18/11/2018 08:57

What is the link with eugenics?

While we should be wary of trying to draw any direct historical parallel or link, in the interests of historical accuracy and respect (if we are talking about eg Nazi eugenics- not the only kind) it’s also true that they forcibly sterilised thousands of people from the social groups that they despised and also that they specifically targeted gay men for castration. On top of other horrific abuse of lesbians and gay men.

pancaketosser · 18/11/2018 08:45

I don't really like the mail online site, but the sidebar of shame is an excellent lesson in how women and men are viewed differently by the media and are talked about in different ways.

I could quite easily see this happening to me and a friend when we were at school, and I can imagine it feels easier doing it as a group.

I really wish that it was possible to identify out of being treated like a female in society. And it doesn't surprise me that children and teenagers, who can be used to feeling like the centre of the universe, would believe that if they changed themselves, then the world will just go along with it.

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 08:43

GC women are frequently accused of being 'unkind' and transphobic. On Twitter when I expressed alarm over Butterfly, there was a backlash from the trans lobby.

Meanwhile, Mermaids is branded as 'the good guy or gal' helping children and families.

When gC women point out that the drugging and medicalisation of children is child abuse, we are demonised. Ironically, Mermaids receives praise and lots of cash.

This is why I like this quote from the article, because it asks why nobody is stepping in to stop this abuse:

They (children) will ask why nobody stopped them, told them treatment could destroy their sex life – or warned them that it would make them infertile and might not make them happy after all. They might also have lawyers asking the same questions, eyeing millions of pounds in compensation.

FloralCup · 18/11/2018 08:40

Surely every parent has a right to know. Advice to keep it a secret breaks the No 1 rule about child protection.

I don't understand how keeping it a secret from parents works:

Child at school: I'm not a boy, I identify as a girl.
Teacher: oh, ok
Parent at parent-teacher night: I'm Bob's parent
Teacher: I don't have a Bob in my class
Parent: yes you do, here (shows photo) Bob.
Teacher: oh, Bobbette - she's doing well.

Has the teacher just 'outed' Bob?
Or should the teacher 'deadname' him and refer to him as Bob?

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 08:36

Andhow it's on there, but I bet this sticks in the BBC's throat.

Yes you, BBC, you are complicit in this indoctrination.

KatVonGulag · 18/11/2018 08:27

Allow me a moment of whimsy here, but folktales are full of warnings about those who seek to cut you off from the people who care and love you. Don't trust those people.

Parents should be involved in the care of their children until that child is legally adult.

Parents should strive to be open and honest too.

In my daughter's school. DD1 bestie is trans. She's high functioning, could well have been a loner if not for DD. Trans issues raised their head around pubity (not before) coincidentally, I'm sure, as she got involved with people online. Her family is full of tragedy. She has anxiety. Her brothers have mental health issues too... cutting, stealing.

She has no male friends, no stereotypical male pursuits or interests. In fact she's very feminine. For what's that worth. Just has this idea she's a boy. Boyish magical essence.

It's bollocks. Without bollocks

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/11/2018 08:17

There are a few articles. And finally, they’re saying the important things:

Carol said: ‘In my view there is always a safeguarding issue – particularly when you know that child has underlying mental health problems. Surely every parent has a right to know. Advice to keep it a secret breaks the No 1 rule about child protection.

About time. Well done.

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 08:16

How a teacher is able to share this sort of information is a huge safe guarding issue. I’m sure the school will know if it is about them - and shall have serious consequences on the teacher involved.

The teacher is whistleblowing because of safeguarding concerns.

From Gov.UK:
You’re a whistleblower if you’re a worker and you report certain types of wrongdoing. This will usually be something you’ve seen at work - though not always.
The wrongdoing you disclose must be in the public interest. This means it must affect others, eg the general public.
As a whistleblower you’re protected by law - you shouldn’t be treated unfairly or lose your job because you ‘blow the whistle’.
www.gov.uk/whistleblowing

Raglansleeve · 18/11/2018 08:11

It is on the bbc news website
www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-46250595
Hopefully this is a sign of the tide turning.

NicoAndTheNiners · 18/11/2018 08:11

alex180

What if the mental health problems are causing the kids to think that they're trans rather than the fact they're trans is giving them mental health problems?

Because nobody seems to know.

My worry is that if it's the former we should be supporting them with any mental health issues, telling them it's ok to not fit into stereotypical gender norms, telling them that it's ok to be different, to not fit in, ........but that that doesn't necessarily mean that they're trans.

Raglansleeve · 18/11/2018 08:09

Just mentioned on R4 8am coverage of front pages.

nellodee · 18/11/2018 08:07

I would love to see a geographical breakdown of children identifying as trans. I have worked in a very large northern secondary for over ten years and we have only had one trans student in all that time. If the occurrences are as clustered as my anecdotal evidence leads me to believe, then surely this would provide even more evidence of social contagion?

AndhowcouldIeverrefuse · 18/11/2018 08:03

This front page is not showing on the BBC website, on the "today's papers" page. It just wouldn't load for me - all the other front pages were loading fine.

I look at this webpage everyday and have never had a problem with particular pictures loading.

Odd...

EverardDigby · 18/11/2018 08:03

So maybe instead of calling young people “attention seekers” “horrendous” or “dreadful” go and speak to them, visit your local lgbt+ centre

I am bi, I have an exGF who's trans, and a niece, and a family friend, and I have worked with LGBT organisations for a significant proportion of my life, and I used to present as a boy when I was younger, and I have a teenage daughter and get her experience of trans children in her school and social circle. Have I done enough to have a view?

And no one called young people dreadful.

BlytheSpiritsSpirit · 18/11/2018 07:57

I also think (anecdotally as I dont know any research on this) it applies mainly to middle class white girls.

I would agree with you - in our working class secondary school, this isn't on the radar at all. Less than 5 miles away, in the private secondary school, there have been clusters of trans-identified girls for several years now.

Rumbledore · 18/11/2018 07:51

Finally, it is mainstream news. I’ve been so angry about so many parents of Autistic children swallowing the mermaids line. When I’ve suggested TransgenderTrend they’ve denounced it as a lobby group.

qumquat · 18/11/2018 07:47

I teach in a large girls' secondary school and we have only had one girl wishing to trans. I think the social contagion is such a massive issue. I also think (anecdotally as I dont know any research on this) it applies mainly to middle class white girls. My school population is mainly black African and minority white working class. The one girl who wanted to trans was autistic, likely lesbian and also one of our very few white middle class students. I think the class link is another thing it has in common with anorexia and bulimia.

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