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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tomorrows Mail on Sunday Front Page

239 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/11/2018 22:23

School with 17 children changing gender

Tomorrows Mail on Sunday Front Page
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LangCleg · 18/11/2018 11:27

Synchronicity eh?

Have we ever disagreed?!

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 11:25

Synchronicity eh? Wink

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 11:24

Lang I was thinking exactly the same thing yesterday!

LangCleg · 18/11/2018 11:21

R0wantrees - re: Withers. Isn't it interesting how all three prominent therapists going public with concerns - Marchiano, Caspian, Withers - are all Jungians.

LangCleg · 18/11/2018 11:19

Then there's the issue of neoliberalism.

You don't like neoliberalism? Why are you supporting genderism then? It's hyper-individualist, ultra-capitalist and just about as neoliberal as it's possible to be.

TheMinorityEngineer · 18/11/2018 11:03

All the made up vocabulary and words around TRANS ideology (looking at you STONEWALL) - they use them without understanding them.

That part of the cult process, the unfreeze change refreeze process. You get confused , you try to understand and engage, that’s when they hook you in and indoctrinate you. Voila, refrozen, and trans now have an ‘ally’.

VickyEadie · 18/11/2018 11:01
  1. The Mail on Sunday is NOT the same paper as the Daily Mail.
  1. The BBC covered this on BBC News this morning at about 9.50am. Quite a balanced discussion with (gasps) correct use of sex and gender. They mentioned how it's almost impossible for people to discuss because of the 'no debate' stance of activists.
AngryAttackKittens · 18/11/2018 10:53

I think we can add "neoliberalism" to the list of words TRAs have seen people using and think might be useful in manipulating people, but don't actually understand.

AngryAttackKittens · 18/11/2018 10:48

I love watching people who don't know what safeguarding is bleat on about safeguarding like parrots. They've observed the fact that a lot of women seem to be using that word, and seem to have concerns related to it, but they have no idea what it is or how it works so they've decided that it means "stuff I don't like".

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 10:42

Then there's the issue of neoliberalism

Yes quite... it has a much wider significance and more complex relationship than the selling of newspapers.

failingatlife · 18/11/2018 10:41

I also think (anecdotally as I dont know any research on this) it applies mainly to middle class white girls.

No trans kids in my kids working class high school. My kids see the whole thing as a bit of a joke. Their Catholic school does not seem to have swallowed the nonsense but we are in Scotland where trans propaganda is to be part of the curriculum.

TheMinorityEngineer · 18/11/2018 10:39

This DM inherently evil, Guardian inherently good line is ridiculous.
I still am angry at the lack of reporting from the Guardian with the cologne station, New Year’s Eve attacks on women by immigrants.
Uncritical thinking combined with extreme PC wokeness is dangerous.
Look at Asian grooming gangs all over the country.

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 10:37

There is a second article in the Mail which relates to the front page

In 20 years we'll look back on the rush to change our children's sex as one of the darkest chapters in medicine, says psychotherapist BOB WITHERS

This blind adherence to ideology has real, dangerous consequences.

In my field, for example, many psychotherapists are now afraid to properly question a patient who identifies as trans: afraid to explore their past, ask questions of their sexuality, or look into their mental health. They won’t go there, for fear of being struck off

1/11/18 Robert Withers article for Pediatric and Adolescent Gender Dysphoria Working Group: An International Discussion Space for Clinicians and Researchers:

'The Science of Gender: evidence for what influences gender development and gender dysphoria and what are the respective influences of nature and nurture. 18-19. 10 .18 The Tavistock and Portman NHS foundation Trust The 2018 European society for paediatric endocrinology (ESPE) science symposium: A review'
(extract)
"This conference was funded by Pfizer pharmaceuticals, though apparently the Tavistock Gender Identity Service was given total freedom regarding the subject matter of the symposium.

Professor Gary Butler of UCLH and the Tavistock GIDS introduced proceedings. He remarked that no chromosomal, hormonal, or other physical anomalies had been detected in the clinical population using the GIDS, despite initially screening for these.

Dr Polly Carmichael, head of the GIDS and a clinical psychologist, went on to give the first talk. It concerned the differences and similarities between gender dysphoria and sex development disorders. Surprisingly, given her profession and the stated purpose of the conference, Polly did not mention psychological factors influencing gender development. Instead she emphasised genetic, biological and social elements. When questioned about this omission she described it as a ‘Freudian slip’. The omission is surprising given the Tavistock’s position as a leading psychoanalytic clinic and the preoccupation with identity development in psychoanalysis. Freud’s (1917) Mourning and melancholia, Winnicott’s (1967) ‘mirroring’ and the Boston Change Process Study Group’s recent (2010) work on the role of implicit relational knowing in the construction of the inner world are all deeply concerned with the development of identity.

Unfortunately, this reluctance to address psychological factors proved to be a feature of the conference. There was not a single talk on the role of psychological factors in the aetiology of gender dysphoria or gender identity. But Professor Riittakerttu Kaltiala-Heino, an adolescent psychiatrist from Tampere Finland, did acknowledged the importance of a psychodynamic perspective. She spoke about her clinical experiences- including her work with ‘adolescent onset gender dysphoria’, sometimes known as ‘Rapid Onset Gender Dysphoria (ROGD)’. She made several important points, observing for instance that in Finland, as elsewhere, psychological co-morbidities remain largely untreated because psychotherapists wrongly believe that only gender identity specialists should treat GD patients. In her experience, such co-morbidities are likely to persist if they are not addressed psychologically before medical treatment. Interestingly she also mentioned that several of her patients seemed to share an identity. Many of the young FtMs in her care claimed to have spent large parts of their childhood alone in the woods fantasising about being a male wolf for instance. She acknowledged privately that this was probably due to social contagion via the internet as people were encouraged to provide the sort of history that would facilitate their medical transition." (continues)

gdworkinggroup.org/2018/11/01/the-science-of-gender-evidence-for-what-influences-gender-development-and-gender-dysphoria-and-what-are-the-respective-influences-of-nature-and-nurture-18-19-10-18-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-fo/

Cointreaugin · 18/11/2018 10:35

Posted too soon.

And typing quickly!

Due to the nature of autism, they find it hard to navigate a complex social world so YouTube has a place.

However, some also mimic to understand.

I met a boy I'd taught as a 9 year old when he was 14. He was then playing call of duty constantly. He identified fully as a soldier and would only talk to you in character. Even had the tiny facial expressions down to a tea.

I'm really not surprised by this.

Teachers who teach autistic children know the truth about all this.

spannablue · 18/11/2018 10:35

... case in point- the DM's article on how feminists are responsible for boys' slower progress at school.

Needmoresleep · 18/11/2018 10:34

I spend enormous swathes of time engaging with the issues in my work

Are you a professional trans-lobbist? In which case I can see why you might have a different take.

Pythagonal · 18/11/2018 10:32

Anyone who's ever had anything to do with them would know they are driven by ££ and nothing else.

In other earth shattering news, the sky is blue, grass is green... Hmm

Cointreaugin · 18/11/2018 10:32

Coming on to post this.

I'm not surprised.

YouTube is a very big thing for children on the autistic spectrum; it's used in schools for educational purposes but they use it then selves to find out about the world and follow their interests.

Moonsick · 18/11/2018 10:31

There are clusters of trans identified children at my daughter’s single sex superselective grammar. One cluster is focused around one of her close friends, a girl with autism. The group is made up of fiercely intelligent girls, none of whom feel like they fit in with the prevailing trends in the school. They are all socially awkward, have unusual hobbies (DnD/MTG), dont bother with makeup/fashion and unsurprisingly were all bullied at their primary schools. Four of them (out of 6) are in romantic relationships with girls and they are all achingly middle class.

When the original girl came out as transgender and made a social transition (name, presentation) and bound her breasts, gender labels became a major topic of discussion and three more are trialling social transitions. One girl asks the teachers to call her a different name every day. DD brought me her WhatsApp the other day, where there were suggestions that DD could be trans because she is gifted in maths and chemistry, doesnt like makeup, is loud, opinionated, wears comfortable clothes, likes being outdoors and isnt bothered by boys. DD was furious and had already replied to tell her friends that they were being ridiculous, but I couldn’t believe all of this was going on behind the scenes, and I had no idea.

spannablue · 18/11/2018 10:30

I'm a floating voter too. I don't trust party politics or appreciate their one size fits all approach.

Then there's the issue of neoliberalism. Ergo, of course the DM or the Guardian will publish something on each side of a debate- to sell papers. There are individual journalists who have their own positive intent but they work for institutions which have overarching ideologies, just like parties. That's what I was referring to. I just feel cynical when the DM does a 'nice' piece.

I spend enormous swathes of time engaging with the issues in my work and private life. This is just one teeny weeny corner and given the hostile environment it's not a place I feel encourages much engagement. Hence my approach to checking in

Novacancy3 · 18/11/2018 10:27

I'm glad to see this being reported on the front page of the MoS today. My own teens left school a year ago, but what I'd been hearing from them for the last couple of years on this issue concerned me.

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 10:21

spannablue Did you let Jake Graf & Hannah Winterbourne (patrons of Mermaids) know your 'serious concerns' & views on Thursday when the Daily Mail ran the uncritical, supportive article about the Mermaids film featuring children involved with the charity?

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3425052-Jake-Grafs-new-film-for-mermaids?pg=2

OldCrone · 18/11/2018 10:19

I'm also a floating voter, Needmoresleep. People who join a group/party sometimes outsource their thinking to that group, so find it odd when some of us think for ourselves about each issue and vote accordingly. So if sometimes the Mail prints an article I agree with it's not totally surprising to me.

I agree that reading a variety of opinions does help with understanding all sides of an issue.

Maybe time to step out of your echo chamber spanna and engage with the issues for once.

LangCleg · 18/11/2018 10:19

Yes, Spanna, we all remember the record of the left wing media with respect to exploitation of children and women. Julie Bindel excoriated for pitching articles about grooming gangs to them. In the end, only Andrew Norfolk at The Times exposing it.

Pardon me if I read the Mail in this case.

hackmum · 18/11/2018 10:17

I just listened to the discussion about the Sunday newspapers on Radio 4. Fraser Nelson, the editor of the Spectator, was on it - I was really disappointed he didn't choose this story. You have to wonder how long the BBC are going to keep on ignoring this issue.

Incidentally, the DM and the MoS have some top-notch reporting going on. If you look back to when the Savile story broke, or Kids Company, the depth and breadth of their reporting was far superior to that in the Guardian or the other broadsheets. They're also very good on reporting medical negligence cases and poor care in the NHS. When you get past the rabidly right-wing element and the dubious sidebar of shame stuff, you can find a lot of high-quality news stories in the Mail.

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