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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tomorrows Mail on Sunday Front Page

239 replies

RedToothBrush · 17/11/2018 22:23

School with 17 children changing gender

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AspieAndProud · 18/11/2018 13:41

The currently increased estimate of the transgender population (from the USA) is 0.6% transgender, but that of course includes adults as well.

The autistic population is estimated to be about 0.6% too.

Someone might want to check my maths but I f the conditions are independent then the chances of anyone having both conditions is 0.6% x 0.6% = 0.0036%.

So how big is this school if it has 17 such cases?

Where are all the transkids who aren’t autistic?

They ought to represent 99.4% of all transkids.

LangCleg · 18/11/2018 13:39

India has no idea how cult member paranoid that sounds!

Rumbledore · 18/11/2018 13:38

Lol

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R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 13:29

What is it about the Mermaids all-affirmation and no-debate position is it that you think is serving gender confused children well? Because from where I'm standing, it turns on its head everything we know about child and adolescent development, the dangers of blaming mental ill health on a single issue, medical ethics, confidentiality and safeguarding . All without any sort of adequate research that could show us why this is the best and only path?

BMJ article by medics: 'Redesigning gender identity services: an opportunity to generate evidence'
(extract)
"Regulated medical practitioners should follow a framework of evidence, not simply respond to client expectations. Creating that evidence to inform quality standards is an ethical imperative. We need research to explore the interplays between gender identity, mental health and neurodevelopmental problems, sexual orientation, autogynephilia, and unpalatable gender roles"

www.bmj.com/content/363/bmj.k4490.full?ijkey=6lX93kQA0lz5YoB&keytype=ref

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3410257-BMJ-article-We-need-research-to-explore-the-interplays-between-gender-identity-mental-health-and-neurodevelopmental-problems-sexual-orientation-autogynephilia-and-unpalatable-gender-roles

PurpleOva · 18/11/2018 13:27

I'm currently (in between toddler demands for sandwiches) watching this from about a year ago about the trans agenda Queenofthedrivensnow. It's pretter interesting so far, so I'm interested to see the conclusion if there is one... although have to make more sandwiches first!

Queenofthedrivensnow · 18/11/2018 13:24

I'm really interested in the underlying agenda though. Is trans a cult? Why are they so keen on recruiting? What's that about? I refuse to believe that it's comparable to being gay and that the population maintains a figure throughout history of likely numbers of lgb people - as in I believe that's true for them but not trans folk.

I think there's a spike around now that will dissipate soon enough. Bit like the baby boom I suppose.

HandsOffMyRights · 18/11/2018 13:20

Excellent common sense questions Sophocles

Off to read Ricky Gervais on Twitter!

SophoclesTheFox · 18/11/2018 12:52

Spanna, do you think that children identifying as trans are being well served by the adults around them being forbidden from discussing what other factors might be at play in their unhappiness (such as with the MofU)?

Do you think they are well served by adults letting them make decisions that are comprehensively beyond their level of maturity, such as decisions on sexual function and fertility in their adult lives?

Do you think they are well served when people urge them to keep secrets from their parents, when those secrets might involve contact with unknown strange adults, medications or harmful practices such as breast binding?

Do you think they are well served by being given powerful drugs that have never undergone clinical testing for the use that they're being put to?

What is it about the Mermaids all-affirmation and no-debate position is it that you think is serving gender confused children well? Because from where I'm standing, it turns on its head everything we know about child and adolescent development, the dangers of blaming mental ill health on a single issue, medical ethics, confidentiality and safeguarding . All without any sort of adequate research that could show us why this is the best and only path?

Help me out here?

Ereshkigal · 18/11/2018 12:42

I love watching people who don't know what safeguarding is bleat on about safeguarding like parrots. They've observed the fact that a lot of women seem to be using that word, and seem to have concerns related to it, but they have no idea what it is or how it works so they've decided that it means "stuff I don't like".

Oh yes.

Waterparc · 18/11/2018 12:24

:)

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 12:17

Waterparc I'm not a morning person... definitely an owl.

Waterparc · 18/11/2018 12:09

Face it,if you want to out-fact Rowantrees you have to get up pretty early in the morning.....

trashyTerf · 18/11/2018 12:08

Ricky Gervais has responded to Piers!

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R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 12:07

I hope mimmymum will be consistent and also criticise Susie Green who says: “If a child or young person consistently, insistently and persistently states their feelings, to ignore, punish or repress their gender identity would effectively be reparative therapy.”

What qualifications does Susie Green have to make her competent to make such a statement?

James Kirkup Spectator
'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'

(extract)
[Dr Polly Carmichael GIDS] "To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies.

Some people in the gender debate say harsh and critical things about Mermaids. I am not doing so here. My suggestion is that Green, having had her own family experience of transgender issues, has decided to devote herself to charitable work in the hope of offering what she believes as help to others who need it. The same is true of several others who work or volunteer at Mermaids. Read this for a moving account of how devoted some parents are to Mermaids for their help.

Despite its influence, it is worth noting what Mermaids is not. It is not a research body. Its activities are support (for families) and advocacy: based on its contacts with those families, it argues for what it sees are better policies and practices by the NHS and others. It does not carry out or commission clinical or academic research. Its most recent annual report lists among its charitable activities “campaigning and advocacy” and says: “Mermaids has also become more active in lobbying”.

There is regular dialogue between Mermaids and the GIDS, but the two sides do not always agree. An example is on the time the GIDS team take to give referred children the hormone-blocking drugs that stop their bodies developing the physical characteristics associated with their birth sex.

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

Bowlofbabelfish · 18/11/2018 12:00

It's notable that she's desperately saying how can this teacher diagnose anyone, they're not a doctor

But backs teachers having confidential non disclosure?

Aye right.

OldCrone · 18/11/2018 11:59

It's notable that she's desperately saying how can this teacher diagnose anyone, they're not a doctor

I hope mimmymum will be consistent and also criticise Susie Green who says: “If a child or young person consistently, insistently and persistently states their feelings, to ignore, punish or repress their gender identity would effectively be reparative therapy.”

What qualifications does Susie Green have to make her competent to make such a statement?

www.theguardian.com/education/2018/may/15/transgender-row-teachers-afraid-challenge-breast-binding

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 11:46

It's notable that she's desperately saying how can this teacher diagnose anyone, they're not a doctor

Its yet a another example of someone with no professional knowledge or experience of working in education, social care or health.

from the article:
"Over an unblemished teaching career spanning two decades, Carol has devoted much of her time to the emotional and personal well-being of the pupils in her care"

"Carol says: ‘I’m now so alarmed by the force of the transgender agenda that I’m not sure how muchlonger I can go on for, as I can no longer be honest with the students.

‘We are being dictated to by groups who don’t know these kids, to make decisions that are harmful to them.

And we are giving children a huge amount of agency to make decisions when what they need are boundaries to make them feel safe and secure. It feels as if we are walking into a nightmare.’"

See also speech from WPUK meeting:

"Professor Michele Moore is an expert in Inclusive Education and Disability Studies. She leads human rights projects across the world to support children, their families and those who work with them. She is the Co-Editor of the ground-breaking book Transgender Children and Young People, Born in Your Own Body from Cambridge Scholars. Michele will be discussing ideas from the book – the implications of self-declaration of gender for children and young people, including disabled children"

OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 18/11/2018 11:40

The DM is reporting on the way technology is being used to send unwanted explicit pictures to women. If they disapprove of this, does it mean I’ll be on the wrong side of history if I also think it’s not a good thing, because I’ll be agreeing with the daily mail?

Fifth of women are sent unwanted sex images amid fears over 'cyberflashing' when someone nearby transmits a photo by using iPhone's AirDrop

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-6401941/Fifth-women-sent-unwanted-sex-images.html

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 11:38

Comment by 'retired transwoman' Jenny Burgess

Interesting to note that JB is involved with a number of healthcare policies, nurse training etc

Datun · 18/11/2018 11:37

So Mimmy can spontaneously combust all she bloody well likes. It's not a good look and all it does is serve to reinforce the point that the Mail is highlighting about there being a culture in which concerns can not be raised.

It's notable that she's desperately saying how can this teacher diagnose anyone, they're not a doctor, whilst at the same time claiming it's completely illegal to tell anyone if a child is trans. It's completely illegal to tell anyone something you don't think they have the competence to diagnose in the first place.

Might as well just tell the whole world that whatever children tell you, keep it secret.

Ugh.

Melamin · 18/11/2018 11:32

moonsick
What you are saying is totally in line with ‘The Genderbread Person’ materials used to explain this ideology.
It bases whether you are a Man or a Woman totally on stereotypes of how you dress, what job you do etc and divorces this from your biological sex.
Many of us would come out as a man with this and I am in no way a man.

NotTerfNorCis · 18/11/2018 11:29

Comment by 'retired transwoman' Jenny Burgess:

We've long believed their was a strong link between Autism and gender dysphorio particularly female to male, I would expect nothing less than a campaign of hate and misinformation from the Mail on this subject. Autistic children whilst vulnerable are intelligent and creative

twitter.com/JennyBurgess12/status/1064104791163486208

Yes Jenny there's clearly a link. But is it what you think it is? Is the solution to social alienation medical treatment that could increase that alienation?

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 11:29

apologies, my comment above is to Lang

R0wantrees · 18/11/2018 11:28

Well there is the weetabix-banana thing!

TrashyTerf · 18/11/2018 11:28

The adults responsible for sterilizing and mutilating children should be in jail. They are a danger to vulnerable people.