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Original poster

Please Help Me On Kialo Trans Debates

28 replies

KiBob · 16/11/2018 14:27

There are a number of trans debates on Kialo which are rather skewed because most people seem to buy into the trans rhetoric.

Kialo is a debate platform that supposedly makes debate unbiased and without the usual internet argumentative style and for the most part it does this quite well, however the admins of some of the debates are very biased. For instance I'm currently trying to convince an admin of debate "should trans women be allowed in women only spaces" to accept my antithesis to this:

"....Allowing cis women into female only spaces is no more likely to lead to allowing men than it is to allowing all people dressed as dinosaurs in."

I suggested:

"Predatory males could simply declare that they are a trans woman and enter into womens' refuges. Potentially the very refuge where their scared victim is seeking refuge from them. This is a common scenario."

In response I was told by admin (and hence my thesis was not accepted into the debate):

"This has no support. I admined the debate about sex segregated bathrooms, and many people made this claim... none with convincing evidence. So please find something that's not a single case or a media moral panic campaign to support this, thanks"

I'm being similarly shot down and effectively no platformed all over the debate. Please help!

This debate is here:
www.kialo.com/should-women-only-spaces-be-open-to-anyone-identifying-as-female-18042/

The thesis I'm using as a specific example is here:
www.kialo.com/should-women-only-spaces-be-open-to-anyone-identifying-as-female-18042/18042.0=18042.1-18042.3-18042.295

Thank you!

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
OnTheDarkSideOfTheSpoon · 03/12/2018 11:06

This came up as a promoted ad on Twitter.

Should "women-only" spaces be open to anyone identifying as female?

www.kialo.com/should-women-only-spaces-be-open-to-anyone-identifying-as-female-18042

VovoBickie · 17/11/2018 00:21

I agree w SonEtLumiere. What evidence is there that proves belief in a gender identity makes you less violent than other males?
Has this point:
+Single sex spaces are necessary for religious females.+
Made it in? its important. I am not religious but I want to ensure we don't exclude females by making single sexed spaces into mixed sex.

Original poster
KiBob · 16/11/2018 20:01

@SonEtLumiere thank you - used that in the debate as a con to the main thesis - which will no doubt not make it to 'accepted' - hey ho.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 16/11/2018 19:40

Alternatively.... “Why should they?” The debate is framed as “Women have to show why Transwomen should be excluded in an environment where nothing is valid anyway”. Actually women are entitled to boundaries and to say No without justification to anyone including men. Trans women refusing to respect women’s boundaries and right to say No is the reason.

This is brilliant.

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2018 19:40

That's great, but this idiot will cite intersex people as a "spectrum".

SonEtLumiere · 16/11/2018 19:39

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

SonEtLumiere · 16/11/2018 19:35

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MIdgebabe · 16/11/2018 19:33

A human has 2 legs. People are born without 2 legs, they are still people but they have an abnormality.

Original poster
KiBob · 16/11/2018 19:32

@nellieellie boosh! I dropped that on them, thank you!

OP posts:
Original poster
KiBob · 16/11/2018 19:30

On the predatory males comment I posted one of your replies to on Kialo, they came back with:

"As I said, no extreme cases. Find convincing proof of a trend and add it here. Until then.. not much more to say."

You can view the discussion I believe if you sign up then go here:
www.kialo.com/should-women-only-spaces-be-open-to-anyone-identifying-as-female-18042/18042.0=18042.1-18042.3-18042.295-18042.746/-18042.746/comments

(PS. I read through this thread and it sounds like I'm an attempt by Kialo to get users onboard... I'm not I'm a long term mumsnetter getting more and more annoyed by the trans rhetoric - unsure how I can prove that except to say I love BetrandRussell's posts and AnyFuckers and we all love a decent thread about finding a locked box behind a false wall now and then!)

OP posts:
nellieellie · 16/11/2018 19:28

Here’s a source - scroll down to “gender differences”

“Second, regarding any crime, male-to-females had a significantly increased risk for crime compared to female controls (aHR 6.6; 95% CI 4.1–10.8) but not compared to males (aHR 0.8; 95% CI 0.5–1.2). This indicates that they retained a male pattern regarding criminality. The same was true regarding violent crime. By contrast, female-to-males had higher crime rates than female controls (aHR 4.1; 95% CI 2.5–6.9) but did not differ from male controls. This indicates a shift to a male pattern regarding criminality and that sex reassignment is coupled to increased crime rate in female-to-males. The same was true regarding violent crime.“

journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

MIdgebabe · 16/11/2018 19:25

Sex is observable, measurable. It does not change over time

Gender identity is not measurable. It may change over time.

Two different concepts.

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2018 19:23

Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender. So if somebody identifies as female, they are.

Bollocks magical thinking.

Bowlofbabelfish · 16/11/2018 19:23

So if somebody identifies as female, they are.

No - if somebody identifies as female they identify as female. Their opinion or belief does not change the external material reality of their sex.

The idea that one’s thoughts can change reality is called ‘magical thinking’ and is a symptom of several psychiatric disorders.

Thinking does not change reality. Sex cannot be altered.

MIdgebabe · 16/11/2018 19:21

Violence link ?

fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

Original poster
KiBob · 16/11/2018 19:21

It's frustrating.

Someone put:

Gender identity is the personal sense of one's own gender. So if somebody identifies as female, they are.
www.kialo.com/should-women-only-spaces-be-open-to-anyone-identifying-as-female-18042/18042.0=18042.1+18042.7+18042.5+18042.12

I put (which has been disapproved as 'unclear'):

"Identifying as female" and "gender", are concepts of presentation only, whereas "female" is a biological fact. They either are or are not. eg. If I identify as a fish my "gender" is "fish", but I am not a fish.

OP posts:
Bowlofbabelfish · 16/11/2018 19:18

Ask them if they believe humans can change sex

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2018 19:13

She's abusing her position to shut you down.

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2018 19:10

Trans cultist. You're not going to get anywhere with this.

Ereshkigal · 16/11/2018 19:09

The idea that pre-op trans women are as likely as cis men to commit violence against cis women needs a source.

No it doesn't. Idiot. You are the not one making the extraordinary claim. Ask her (I bet it's a woman) what proof she has that they are different in this respect?

Original poster
KiBob · 16/11/2018 18:51

Admin just declined another of my theses.

I put:
Women only spaces are for biological women; not those gender presenting as "women". Trans women and cis women are not the same thing. Pre-op trans women for example, still have fully functional male genitalia and the same increased likelihood towards committing violence against women as men because biologically, they are men. Approximately 85,000 women and 12,000 men are raped in England and Wales alone every year rapecrisis.org.uk/statistics.php

Admin replied:

  • The idea that pre-op trans women are as likely as cis men to commit violence against cis women needs a source.
  • The idea that trans women have "fully functioning" genitalia needs a source (hormones make many trans women effectively unable to reach orgasm)
  • and finally, you state women-only spaces are only for cis women: where does it say so? Support for this? There are plenty of women* parties, cafes, etc that have welcomed all women...

Help!

OP posts:
Original poster
KiBob · 16/11/2018 15:47

I am copy and pasting verbatim your comments into the discussion on Kialo. It is editable. If anyone wants their comments not to be used please let me know and I will not use them.

But preferably, please join the debate and get your points out there yourselves.

On the plus side, here's a debate I am admin for:

www.kialo.com/does-transgenderism-exist-18381/18381.0=18381.1/=18381.1

OP posts:
UpstartCrow · 16/11/2018 15:20

There are only 2 sexes for the human race; as can be demonstrated by the fact there are only 2 gametes. Fertile males and females reliably produce the gametes associated with their sex class.
Disorders of development do not invalidate classes.
Gender is irrelevant to biological sex.

If their moderation sucks and there's no way to report bias, it makes a mockery of the platform.

Original poster
KiBob · 16/11/2018 15:09

@Ereshkigal no I don't think there's a way to report. However, it's a community. If a lot of users disagreed and discussed eloquently I'm sure the tide would turn.

Here's another one I added:

Link
www.kialo.com/should-women-only-spaces-be-open-to-anyone-identifying-as-female-18042/18042.0=18042.1-18042.10-18042.106-18042.574/-18042.574/comments

Content:

"Being a woman is only to do with your sex. Being 'feminine' or 'masculine' has nothing to do with your sex. "Woman" is one of the two sexes a human can be."

Admin replied:

"Sorry, this must have gotten lost in the flood of suggestions we're getting. Apologies. I'm sorry, but I have to make the same point as so often, that - even naturally occurring - there are more than two genders for the human race. All Intersex conditions - while, yes, rare - are also part of that spectrum, after all, and have existed probably as long as humanity itself."

Please join and help. These debates are public and the older they are the harder they are to get changed.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 16/11/2018 14:57

That person is clearly biased and should not be ruling on that "debate". It sounds like a crap platform if it's supposed to be impartial and fair but isn't. Can you report them to the site in any way?