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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this normal for a woman or is it gender dysphoria?

105 replies

cockBlocker · 15/11/2018 21:52

Forgive me the following description is stating the obvious for some of you, but I wanted to post this to encourage a discussion about how women experience their own bodies. Like other women here, one of the numerous objections I have to the term ‘cis’ is that I have never felt comfortable with gender norms or my own body and have no innate sense of being female.

Even as a small child I hated being cooed over simply because I had long blonde hair. I felt reduced to little more than a doll and always wondered why my hair should matter, it was so trivial. I asked to get my hair cut off but my mother wouldn’t let me. I hated that I had to be a bridesmaid, being paraded around in a ridiculous dress – even though I was only around eleven, I still felt dehumanised, being shown off as a thing rather than a person. Similar was having to wear a skirt for Sunday School, I didn’t see why God would care if I had a skirt on or not. I hated it in Brownies too, I wanted to be active and not worry about whether I was showing my pants or not. I hated that I wasn’t allowed to have ‘boys toys’ like a chemistry set because I was told it was dangerous.

I’ve never been overweight, but as soon as my body started to develop I felt fat. When I was a teenager I developed bulimia and it’s something I’ve struggled with on and off ever since. I hate when my stomach bloats up to three times it’s normal size when I’m due to get my period so I can grab handfuls of flesh around my middle. I have a fairly slim but curvy body, and I feel that it attracts the kind of men I don’t want to attract, it somehow makes them assume that I’m stereotypically feminine in my interests or a bimbo, inferior in every possible way. I hate it when I find men staring at my tits rather than listening to me. I also hate it when you get looked up and down by women, as happens often when you’re walking down the street minding your own business. The sad thing is I’m sure I do it too, we get programmed to monitor each other and make sure no woman steps out of place with what she’s wearing or how she’s behaving – not too confident in her own body, covered up enough etc. I try to dismantle this and smile at women I pass on the street now (when I’m not being a miserable git), I want things to change.

I feel like I had to learn how to like heterosexual sex. The thought of a man’s ejaculate to be honest still does make me feel a bit sick. I do enjoy sex, but the submissive nature of it for a woman and the way it reduces me to just a body at times repulses me.

I hate the way that relatives and friends’ parents feel it their place to comment on my body – my weight, the straightness of my legs, my posture. One of my ex-boyfriend’s mothers seemed to size me up like a prize cow, assessing my health as a potential breeder. I realise this might be a bold thing to say on Mumsnet, but I’ve never wanted to have children. I have a recurring nightmare that I am pregnant, I wake up in a cold sweat. It’s the thought of feeling trapped by my body, as much as the way I feel society would view me as a purely physical being existing only to bring other life into the world rather than in my own right (please note that this isn’t how I see mothers myself).

I hate when I go to the gym that the idiot men in there look at me lifting the heaviest weights I can with a smarmy look, as if they’re comparing themselves to me and getting an ego boost, thinking how pathetic I am. I hate being grabbed around my waist as though I’m a man’s f*ing property and sexualised as a ‘thing’ before they’ve even spoken to me.

I was wondering how many other women feel the way I do? When a young teen I wondered if I was gay, even though that’s never been my orientation. I said many times whilst growing up that I wanted to be a boy, but being transgender wasn’t on the radar back then. I have no idea how I would feel about it if I was growing up now, it seems like it would be ten times worse.

I hope no-one minds me posting this. I’ve never really talked about just how uncomfortable I feel in my own body with anyone before, so I honestly don’t know if what I’m describing is extreme or very common. I feel genuinely deeply distressed how women are being redefined by transgender ideology as supposedly comfortable in their own bodies, as it is something I have struggled with my entire life and it continues daily. As a reaction to this, I’m currently rethinking how to present myself as more androgynous by cutting my hair off and wearing more masculine clothes. I can’t stand the idea of gender norms being reinforced any more than they already are, I feel trapped.

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cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 01:48

LassWiADelicateAir - I have the feeling that this is a class-based thing. I expect there is an over-emphasis on valuing a girl for her looks in the working classes. That was certainly what I experienced, when I compare with other girls similar to me and to my more middle class friends who seemed a lot more confident in themselves and caring less about how others judged them. Working class men can be a lot more forthright when 'appraising' you too.

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slappinthebass · 16/11/2018 01:27

I relate a lot to your childhood experience and only a little as an adult.

From a toddler I absolutely despised people calling me pretty/beautiful/commenting on my hair. I would cry and get upset about it. They didn't say that about my brothers. I refused or wear dresses from aged 2. I remember one occasion, a wedding I think, where I was forced to. I barricaded myself in my room and screamed until I was sick. I was still made to wear it. I hated pink or pretty things, and I definitely felt feminine girls were inferior and didn't socialise with them. I remember being gifted floral bedsheets, and crying and feeling physically sick whenever they were on. I still remember how ridiculously upset I was when sleeping at a family members house with my boy cousins, she bought a multi pack of toothbrushes, and I had to have the pink one. I cried all day. I still remember the Christmas when all my cousins had superhero figures and I had a fairy. Then the one when all my cousins had remote control cars and I had flower shaped soaps. The Christmas morning I opened my stocking to an amazing tub of green bubble bath with plastic frogs in and how my mum snatched it from me and said oh dear, you must have the wrong one, and swapped my stocking with a brothers and found pink bath salts instead. These probably sound all very minor, but prove that as a girl, my individuality wasn't important. I hated how some family members would say 'she should have been a boy' 'she'll be a lesbian this one'. How I asked everyone to call me a boys name, how I had all my hair cut off short. I hated swimming because I felt uncomfortable in my body and wanted to wear trunks. I could go on and on.

However, unlike you I always was obsessed with babies and had them young, felt more comfortable with my body after puberty, became slightly more feminine, or at least slightly more comfortable doing some feminine things like wear skirts and make up but probably just to avoid unwanted attention from standing out. I really hate it when people compliment my looks, especially my partner. If people compliment me for wearing make up I think they are shallow. I still think marriage is a hideous idea, still dislike pink, don't like to wear bright colours, don't wear dresses or heels, but I feel confidentially female and not dysphoric. I'm happy in my body.
If I'd been born today I've no doubt I would have been encouraged to transition by the same family that used to force femininity on me.

LassWiADelicateAir · 16/11/2018 01:24

TooMuchTVTooYoung?

lass maybe, but hopefully just my poor phrasing. I meant I was more aware of being appraised (generally by men) and found it uncomfortable. We're expected (by some) to spring back to our previous size after giving birth and I certainly didn't

Are we? I do sometimes think feminists make far more out of this idea of the "male gaze" "society expects" and the like than non- feminist women who don't particularly care or even notice it beyond thinking , sod that, I don't care, I'm having the last biscuit and getting on with their lives.

I do think it's a bit self-obsessed to go back to work and think all eyes are on whether or not you have lost the baby weight.

Feminism bangs on a lot about the unrealistic expectations of what women are supposed to look like and how these can't be achieved but seems to ignore the fact that looking around any high street, shop or office there are millions of women happily ignoring this.

I do have reservations about the level of self-loathing of one's bodies being posted on here being "normal" or "healthy"

Vegilante · 16/11/2018 01:12

Feelings of loathing towards our bodies has been pretty widespread among the girls & women I've known in the long course of my life, no matter our sexual orientation. It's a common response to the experiences of being female in the misogynist world we live in. Back in the 1970s & 1980s, we called it "negative body image" & saw it as a manifestation of learned low self-esteem.

Funny thing is, I suffered worst from body-loathing when I was at my slimmest & most beautiful. As I got older, I outgrew a lot of it. But now that I'm getting really old, I find I'm vulnerable to new manifestations of it in new forms. But I also have perspective & a lot of good life experience, so it's not nearly as distressing or overwhelming as in my youth. A lot rolls off my back.

Talk to other women about this & keep talking to them. Sharing helps. As do activities that make you focus on & feel good about all the marvelous things your body can do, rather than reinforce concerns about your weight & looks. Wear what you want. Screw sex role stereotypes. Express yourself however you want. Also, remember "dysphoria" simply means "a state of unease or generalized dissatisfaction with life. The opposite of euphoria." It's just a code word for unhappiness.

And go to the library & see if you can find books from the 70s, 80s & 90s like "Fat Is A Feminist Issue" by Susie Orbach, "The Obsession" by Kim Chernin, "Women & Self-Esteem" by Linda Sanford & Mary Ellen Donovan & "Revolution From Within" by Gloria Steinem. I'm sure there are many more recent books that can also be of help, but this isn't an area I've looked into for a long time, as you can tell.

You are in good company, definitely not alone. Good luck!

aidelmaidel · 16/11/2018 00:46

Sounds like a perfectly normal and healthy response to toxic misogyny in the patriarchy to me, but wouldn't it be lovely to think that if you just took some magic hormones and went around calling yourself Simon, it would all magically evaporate? I can see the attraction. "Cis" women = vile fat loud bitchy scum, hitting female puberty and becoming a cis woman = traumatizing, so become a man, yay, problem solved.

Ugh.

cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 00:32

Back to the main topic, I think I was a handmaid for far too long without realising it. I might not feel so strongly if I hadn't tried to put others first for so long. I went along with femininity even though it was clearly not how I wanted to express myself.

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cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 00:26

I cried the first time I had a smear. The doctor was a very nice woman. I hate anything like that, being in such a vulnerable position (was a bit painful too).

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cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 00:20
Flowers
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Dinosauratemydaffodils · 16/11/2018 00:19

cockBlocker Not at all. I had a smear test today so feeling a bit vulnerable and icky for want of a better word. Stuff like that brings my self loathing to the fore.

cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 00:17

I was raised in a working class household where women were gossiped about according to how much weight they had put on and other such tripe rather than what was in the content of their heads - in fact any kind of successes such as going to university were met with snarky put downs based upon looks. I'm not saying all working class homes are like this, but I would imagine that girls are more likely to be raised to value their education and other achievements more in middle class households.

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cockBlocker · 16/11/2018 00:11

FWRLurker - the range of responses here shows that to be true.

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FWRLurker · 15/11/2018 23:59

OP, the thing is that women are incredibly diverse in our experiences personality, talents, and insecurities. We are every religion, every nation, every political persuasion. Some of us hate our bodies, some revel in them. Most of us some of each, at different times. Literally the only thing that unites us is that we were born with female bodies and have lived our lives with them.

The poison of the trans "movement" is to try to change all that and say that no, any insecurity you have about your body is WRONG and must mean that you should change your healthy, wonderful, female body. That a real woman, somehow, wouldn't feel this way.

Feminism means there is no "real woman" or "real man" when it comes to feelings in our heads. The only thing that makes a woman a woman is her female body. The only thing that makes a man a man is his body. The rest is toxic garbage.

cockBlocker · 15/11/2018 23:56

Dinosauratemydaffodils - I'm so sorry. I hope my post isn't upsetting you or anyone else too much. I still don't know if I'd actually change sex if I could, because society would still be the same and that's what needs to change.

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ijustwantasofa · 15/11/2018 23:55

Female and feminine aren't the same thing. Took me a while to learn that!

TooMuchTVTooYoung · 15/11/2018 23:52

lass maybe, but hopefully just my poor phrasing. I meant I was more aware of being appraised (generally by men) and found it uncomfortable. We're expected (by some) to spring back to our previous size after giving birth and I certainly didn't.

Dinosauratemydaffodils · 15/11/2018 23:50

A girl I rather liked told me when I was around 14, that I'd be a really hot boy. I went home and cried because that's what I would have much rather been. I hated my breasts, I used to fantasize about cutting them off and always slept on my stomach to try and flatten them. I hated puberty, I hated the fact that my brownie uniform ended up as a micro mini skirt but my mum refused to buy me a new one as I was about to move up to guides and she didn't see an issue with men looking at me. I hated that we had to wear gym knickers even though I went to school on a military base and the comments we got, even as 11 year olds... more so, though was the realisation that I was the only one who framed it negatively. That it was okay for a squadron of adult men to refer to a child as "jailbait".

Pregnancy was revolting to the point of not being able to look in the mirror. I have no photos at all of my first pregnancy and only some of the second because dh insisted.

Having children was just the final final straw in my relationship with my body as I couldn't even get that bit right. Two emergency sections because even though I go in labour and I dilate, my giant headed spawn don't seem to want to fit through my pelvis.

I'd be a man in a heartbeat if it was possible to actually change sex. To me, there is not one positive element of womanhood.

cockBlocker · 15/11/2018 23:41

Stopthisnow thank-you so much! That looks like a wonderful set of resources. I've just finished 'Unpacking Queer Theory' and really enjoyed it.

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cockBlocker · 15/11/2018 23:39

Racecardriver - it's more what society's interpretation of what being a woman means that I dislike.

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Stopthisnow · 15/11/2018 23:38

cockBlocker I think it is more common than most realise to feel as you do. I also think that women are encouraged to individualise many issues, and see them as their own personal problems, when most of the time they are systemic. There are a number of radical feminist books that you may be interested in that have a political analysis about why women often feel as you describe. Sheila Jeffreys’ books are particularly enlightening, if you haven’t read them they may be helpful to you. She has written about the beauty industry in ‘Beauty and Misogyny’, about sex in ‘Anticlimax’ and about gender in ‘Gender Hurts’. I lent those three books to a friend a few years ago, who said she felt some of the things you describe, she found them very helpful and said she no longer felt ‘weird’ after reading them. Here are those books in PDF form if you would like to check them out:

Beauty and Misogyny
www.feministes-radicales.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Jeffreys_Beauty_and_Misogyny_Harmful_Cultural_Practices_in_the_West__Women_and_Psychology_1.pdf

Anticlimax
psv4.userapi.com/c414927/u5787984/docs/2914a906e722/1990_-_Anticlimax_A_Feminist_Perspective_on_the_Sexual_Revolution.pdf?extra=hOIv72MYXsn_54biHZSBIZ4Ta-qcPzxvXV9m4_HM3nJpH8IT-UgXPvm1yrBVc4j6Fvq330Ruym_wdEPgvE2gGlCUEw8D7buXL6Rw-P5RDFhptpGNiCdko63X7c6LLRaXpEM

Gender Hurts
psv4.userapi.com/c414927/u5787984/docs/a8da0040a353/2014_-_Gender_Hurts_A_Feminist_Analysis_of_the_Politics_of_Transgenderism.pdf?extra=chc_xK0J25fhkmhPqBkMJiJuAPqS_2nXM6exyd6VF1nWnKEgQXHy0AoleOT2lfNC3N7fJZT2j3uyHUJD_vNwJR52X8lw5PS8M2bXXfIexXllnokmY_CHRslz6LoK1Eoo3n8

cockBlocker · 15/11/2018 23:37

Racecardriver -my intention wasn't so much to ask if this is dysphoria but to question whether this might be mistaken for dysphoria in a teen. I wonder if other teens now go through this and if that's how it's interpreted.

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Racecardriver · 15/11/2018 23:29

Well it’s definitely not dysphoria. It just sounds like you dislike being a woman and have espressos a fuck ton of anger.

LassWiADelicateAir · 15/11/2018 23:26

I think the terms are not helpful to you.

In a sense nobody is normal but unless one's "not normal" behaviour is actually a danger to other people we are all within the bounds of normal but with different experiences.

ArkeNOTen · 15/11/2018 23:23

I dint think you are unusual OP. I’ve been through counselling and had a very different experience to you in that I went through puberty incredibly late- this separated me from other girls in many ways I’ve only recently realised. This why I read with horror about puberty blocking drugs- because I’ve reslised it affected my interests and thoughts too. I was set apart because I wasn’t driven to talk about boys all the time (and was more interested in art and culture)- but I’ve only recently realised that was hormone driven. When I eventually entered puberty it was cripplingly embarrassing as I was so aware of it. I. Am remember sleepless nights worrying that I didn’t have breasts and being teased for it. (Ironically they were more than ample when they appeared but that was a shock too).
As others have said giving birth gives you an admiration for the body it’s hard to achieve otherwise. I would imagine running a marathon may match in the endurance stakes...

cockBlocker · 15/11/2018 23:21

"Normal" or "not normal" aren't expressions I would use. - granted, bit of a clickbait title and perhaps not helpful.

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LassWiADelicateAir · 15/11/2018 23:19

When I was pregnant and when the children were small it was such a relief to not have men look at me. Then going back to work, it was uncomfortable to feel eyes on me again

I find this a peculiar attitude. It seems a liitle, I'm not sure this is the right word but, egotistical to think one is such a centre of attention and "eyes are on you"