Law Commission consulting on paid surrogacy in the UK

@MrsSpenserGregson yes I have wondered the same for years and it seems the law is going in the opposite direction.

I hope you've been able to access support more recently.

StrawberryFilter No one has said anything remotely critical of your daughter. No one has said anything which could remotely be interpreted as saying she should feel ashamed about anything. There are posters , including me, who have been critical of what you did but your daughter is not responsible for your actions.

I found your choice of language shocking and your explanation does not alter that opinion. I am genuinely shocked that anyone on MN, particularly on FWR could casually juxtapose the words "illegitimate" and "babies" and not see how offensive it is.

caro my own experience of having a child through surrogacy does make objectivity difficult. As does everyone's I guess.

I've been active under various names about the proposed changes to the GRA over the last year and it's fucking weird to find myself out of sync with the MN hive mind, tbh.

I understand some on this thread are very anti-surrogacy. I'd just ask you to remember that my daughter is a real person who might read this some day.

She has nothing to be ashamed of, she was very much wanted; she was created because of the kindness of her surrogate mum who is a real person, who loves her and loves us. Yes, the plural of anecdotes does not equal data.... but relentlessly focussing on the the rare fuckups in surrogacy is always going to miss the point for most of us grateful parents.

I’m one of those scary Catholic types and it wouldn’t occur to me to even think of a woman as being barren or a child as illegitimate. Nobody talks like that any more.

I think you may be highlighting your own neuroses and of course your own experience may make objectivity difficult.

Look, I cannot as the mum of 5 begin to imagine how awful infertility must be. I can’t. I know how much I wanted children and I would have been devastated not to be able to have them.

But the problem is that if we allow the ends to justify the means, it can give rise to all sorts of atrocities. You may not feel as though you exploited another woman but human nature means that not everyone is as well-intentioned or concerned for their surrogate’s welfare. Desperation can sometimes blind our senses.

But I wish you and your child well. There’s no point bashing you over the head for what is done.

Strawberry I don't think a woman's fertility makes a difference to the surrogacy debate - and if a prerequisite of posting on FWR is fertility, I'll be off too then.

Lass do you not think I'm highly attuned to those sorts of terms... I would have been spoken of in hushed tones as a... gasp ... barren wife back in the good old days. What fun that would have been for me.

Would you rather I bow out and leave all FWR discussion to the fertile women?

I should not need to point out to anyone on these threads than I was born a woman; and as such I shouldn't have to prove my uterus works properly (it doesn't, obv) to have a say.

Babies have a human right to be with their mothers.
There is no such thing as a ‘right to a child’
Human being should not be bought and sold.
It doesn’t matter what language you dress it up in, it’s the buying and selling of babies, it’s the exploitation of women, it’s the exploitation of poor and desperate people.

Babies and mothers are inextricably bound to one another through the process of pregnancy, then birth and then through breastfeeding. This bond cannot be replicated by anything else. To legally endorse the separation of a baby from the one person they want more than anyone else in the world is cruel and dehumanising and ultimately damaging for the child.

For some perspective from the babies who are bought and sold via the surrogacy industry, here’s a blog from a young man whose mother is a surrogate.

sonofasurrogate.tripod.com/

Not glib, I hope - it was meant to evoke the sort of Dickensian attitudes that used to prevail, sorry if that didn't come across?

To be honest I think you gave away unwittingly more than you intended to.

I do not support the selling of non-newborn children because that is directly commodifying the child, as opposed to the means of its development

eh? Really, what's the difference?

Then you could have partaken in altruistic surrogacy, as can any other woman who has a desire to be a surrogate.

I'd have rather liked to be financially compensated for the time and effort involved, as with any other job. I agree that they are not exactly the same but I feel there are sufficient commonalities for the possibility of financial incentivisation while managing the risk of exploitation.

I sense we've reached an impasse based upon our differing perceptions of the exact nature surrogacy. Have a great night.

I am too old to act as a surrogate but would absolutely have considered it when I was of an appropriate age, regardless of economic circumstances

Then you could have partaken in altruistic surrogacy, as can any other woman who has a desire to be a surrogate. No need to introduce commercial surrogacy and the risks of exploitation that go along with it.

Of course not all women do it due to poverty but the fact is when you introduce money some will. And I was responding to your repeatedly comparing it to any other job. It is not the same as other paid employment that people do.

giving up a newborn due to poverty

I appreciate that you find the idea of surrogacy unpleasant and/or objectionable but please don't foist upon all women, a narrow set of circumstances in which they would consider surrogacy. I am too old to act as a surrogate but would absolutely have considered it when I was of an appropriate age, regardless of economic circumstances.

As user8905 so succinctly stated, it's optional.

It's good that they're looking into it. If it doesn't go through then people will continue to go overseas to the US or 3rd world countries. Most people considering surrogacy would much rather do so in their home country if they can afford to do so.

If the regulations are well thought through then I'm sure it'll work well in the UK. They'll be able to use all the experiences in the US and 3rd countries to hopefully make it as fair as possible for everyone involved.

Remember it's optional - no one has to do it.

You don't think undergoing pregnancy and giving up a newborn due to poverty is different to other jobs?

How on earth do you ensure the woman isn't being forced into it, whether by poverty or other circumstances?

How do you do that with any job?

Gronky You talk about informed consent, but consent by definition has to be a free choice. How on earth do you ensure the woman isn't being forced into it, whether by poverty or other circumstances?

Materialist, apologies if you are not addressing me directly but I wasn't making comparisons between risky industrial professions and prostitution but between the former and surrogacy, where workplace safety absolutely can be applied (e.g. screening donors for transmissible disease, assessing the health of the surrogate prior to implantation, providing medical support throughout pregnancy, clean conditions for implantation, ect.).

EverardDigby and MrsSpenserGregson

I commented above after just started the thread that I did not think it would necessarily traumatic for the child as just like adoption.

I hadn't read your later posts at the time & wouldn't have posted if I had as clearly the separation was traumatic for you. Apologies if it sounded insensitive. It was though based on my own experience of being adopted at birth which (I don't think) has had that effect on me (though it's possibly affected my siblings differently.

Anyway I was interested in the writings someone mentioned on birth trauma so I will check them out.

Those seem like rather loaded questions, TwistedStitch but I do not support the selling of non-newborn children because that is directly commodifying the child, as opposed to the means of its development. I do support the selling of organs when the sale does not lead to significant disability of the seller. As an example, I support people with rare blood types selling their blood or blood components (blood is an organ) because incentifying this behaviour benefits the health of a great many people.

Yes it is an argument used by anti-abortion activists. So what? Regardless of where you sit re abortion, once that baby is born you are unquestionably dealing with another human being with human rights.

Gronky do you support people being allowed to sell non newborn children? Do you support people being allowed to sell their organs?

Also, you do have to accept that there is another human being at stake

This sounds rather reminiscent of arguments used by anti abortion activists.

That you were created to order to please adults.

What description would you use for someone who was conceived and brought to term through conventional means? Ultimately, isn't that the case for all children?

You should check out the surro forums of women who have just gone through the process & are in that post-partem period.

I certainly agree that a form of psychological screening and support would be desirable to minimise the impact. Informed consent is very important because, otherwise, it's not consent.