Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Female prisoners in England left to give birth alone in their cells

204 replies

hackmum · 13/11/2018 08:13

www.theguardian.com/society/2018/nov/13/female-prisoners-in-england-left-to-give-birth-alone-in-their-cells-report-reveals

I feel increasingly despondent about the way inmates are treated in women's prisons. Not only is it now apparently acceptable to shove a male rapist in with a bunch of vulnerable women, there is a lack of basic care for pregnant women. In my view, pregnant women shouldn't be in prison in the first place, unless they've done something very seriously wrong, which the vast majority haven't.

This particular report highlights the fact that some female prisoners have been left to give birth alone in their cells. It's a depressing read.

OP posts:
LangCleg · 13/11/2018 15:48

obviously we need proper data on overall numbers of pregnancies in prisons

I think we'll have to resort to FOIs. I might get working on that if I get some time.

Original poster
hackmum · 13/11/2018 15:34

And here is the Corston report on drug use:

'Drug addiction plays a huge part in all offending and this seems to be disproportionately the case with women. Around 70% of women coming into custody require clinical detoxification compared with 50% of men. Women often have more complex poly substance misuse. Some are known to use up to nine different types of substances simultaneously and consequently need concurrent detoxification for alcohol, benziodiazepines and opiates. Nearly all are also heavy
smokers. An independent unpublished three-month study at Holloway in 2001 revealed that half of the women who did not formally require detoxification, nevertheless tested positive to stimulants or cannabis, implying that 85% of women received had a substance misuse problem prior to arrest. As one commentator has said, “We are not winning the war on drugs but we are certainly taking a lot of prisoners”.'

OP posts:
Original poster
hackmum · 13/11/2018 15:33

ChooChoo - you said that most of the prison population, male and female, have mental health and drug problems. Here, again, is the Corston report:

"Mental health problems are far more prevalent among women in prison than in the male prison population or in the general population. Up to 80% of women in prison have diagnosable mental health problems. The ONS Survey of Psychiatric Morbidity among Prisoners in England and Wales reported in 1997 that before imprisonment 40% of women prisoners admitted to having received help for mental health problems in the last year (double the proportion of male prisoners); 17% had a mental health hospital admission; 7% had an admission to a locked or secure ward; and 20% had experienced some care (compared with 2% in the general population). The Social
Exclusion Unit in a study published in 2002 found that 70% of women prisoners suffered from two or more mental disorders, 35 times the level in the general population. In SCG’s case study of 50 prolific self-harmers, half the women had been a psychiatric in-patient in the past and 19 had been receiving treatment prior to custody. 40 of the 50 had been formally diagnosed, mainly with borderline personality disorder. 66% of women in prison are assessed as having symptoms of neurotic disorders (depression, anxiety or phobias) compared with 20% in the general population. About 50% display features of personality disorder (mood swings, poor emotional control, and
problems with relationships, poor impulse control)."

OP posts:
Mc180768 · 13/11/2018 15:31

Because I don't know how to post links - Society.org has some research called: Lost Spaces: Is the current procedure for women prisoners to gain a place in a prison MBU fair & accessible' is well worth a read.

RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 15:29

One of the things that struck me with the situation with the woman I knew who was pregnant in prison was how difficult she found it to get access to any medical care.

I knew her well and I am not going to argue in her case about whether she should have been in prison. I know the ins and outs of her situation, and yeah, she was overdue a prison visit. She had been about, and was in her late 30s. She was tough as old boots and never afraid to be pushy. She was from a good supportive extended family though she had some immediate family problems.

But things in prison were tough and even she struggled. She'd be someone I'd have said would have coped well.

I can not imagine what that means for a less confidence or less street wise 18 or 19 year old, from a difficult family background and no support on the outside or long term once they get out.

She couldn't just ask for a pregnancy test, or to see a doctor. The protocol it took to do that and the pressure from prison officers and other prisoners not to put your head above the parapet to get the help you needed was intense. You are taught to put your head down, and shut up and not make a fuss.

That needs to be kept in context. If she had been offered health care appointments as standard as part of routine - eg: a pregnancy test on arrival, or a daily/weekly routine it would help normalise health care.

The mental health problems of prisoners in general are huge. We don't have good services outside prison. Pregnancy is seen as a good time to intervene in all sort of wider health and social issues because women are in contact with service providers. Yet prison isn't seen in this context or this way. Yes its about punishment. But if society wants to reduce its problems (and expenses) it has to start seeing prison as more than a holding cell for difficult people who we'd rather forget or wished were invisible.

Health care should not be an after thought for people in prison. It should be THE priority. Other things relating to life outside and freedom are the things that should go.

These are people who have slipped through the cracks of society previously. Its an opportunity to reverse that but we don't view it in that way. Why not?

Why is health in prison, seen as a something thats low priority and more of a privilege than a basic right and building block for a better life situation?

arranfan · 13/11/2018 15:26

Should we not then be calling for a review of sentencing for all women, not just pregnant women?

It's one of the reasons that a Mumsnet web chat with appropriate organisations and speakers would be so useful. I'd like to hear the arguments for a full scale reform of the criminal justice system and what it would look like.

ScreamingValenta · 13/11/2018 15:24

The evidence is that women tend to be given harsher sentences than men for the same crime.

Should we not then be calling for a review of sentencing for all women, not just pregnant women?

Choochoothepanda · 13/11/2018 15:17

What if they didn't pay their Council Tax or TV Licence, or stole food to feed their kids? Thats the level of crime we are talking about for women.

But they're not getting jailed for that. Not as a first offence, otherwise I'd be on board. That would be outrageous

Choochoothepanda · 13/11/2018 15:15

To be honest, I don't see the point of sending anyone to prison for shoplifting. Firstly, they're hardly a danger to society, and secondly, I'd hazard a guess that they need help (with a drug problem, with money problems, with mental health problems) rather than locking up.

I'd agree with you if people were being jailed for first offences, but they're really not. Cautions come first, then rehabilitation orders, drug/alcohol orders, community orders. How much help do you think the CJS needs to give people before finally saying "you've had your chance"? You can't force people to comply with drug rehab, you can eventually force them into prison.

UpstartCrow · 13/11/2018 15:14

What if they didn't pay their Council Tax or TV Licence, or stole food to feed their kids? Thats the level of crime we are talking about for women.

Choochoothepanda · 13/11/2018 15:10

Suppose she has severe mental health problems, or is addicted to hard drugs? What purpose is served by sending her to prison?

That would be most of the prison estate, male and female.

Ultimately prison is there as a punishment. The vast majority of society want it to be there. I don't think it's as simple as violent vs non violent offences. Burglary is a non violent offence, most of the population would want to see burglars jailed (male or female)

Prison doesn't work for rehabilitation, most know that. But at the very least it's an embuggarence for criminals and gives society a break from them, even if only for a short time. I honestly cannot see any reason (parenthood or not) not to jail criminals whatever their sex

Wrathofjurgenklop · 13/11/2018 15:08

Or if they are not a danger to society, they could have alternative deferred sentencing, or better access to baby units.
Whatever
But we should not treat pregnant women like the male prisoners.
We cannot allow male criminals to abuse the situation by using women to front their crimes knowing they are, could be, or will be pregnant.

This is such an emotive subject, I naively thought there were enough special baby units available.

At least the media watches MN for stories, they might pick up on this one.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 13/11/2018 15:04

To be honest, I don't see the point of sending anyone to prison for shoplifting. Firstly, they're hardly a danger to society, and secondly, I'd hazard a guess that they need help (with a drug problem, with money problems, with mental health problems) rather than locking up.

Original poster
hackmum · 13/11/2018 14:57

Weetabix: "I don't agree that pregnant women shouldn't be in prison. If the crime that they have committed carries a prison sentence then they should have to serve that sentence."

The evidence is that women tend to be given harsher sentences than men for the same crime.

There is also the question of mitigating circumstances, of course. Suppose a woman is caught shoplifting multiple times. A lot of people think she should have a prison sentence. But suppose the reason she is shoplifting is because her partner takes all her benefit money and doesn't allow her any, and she's shoplifting to feed herself and her children? (This is an example I've seen Corston give elsewhere.) Suppose she has severe mental health problems, or is addicted to hard drugs? What purpose is served by sending her to prison?

OP posts:
SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 13/11/2018 14:57

And no we shouldn't punish children for their parent's crime but what do you suggest? A pregnant woman is sentenced to prison - do you keep her out until the baby is born?

I suggest providing her and her baby with the same level of healthcare that every other British citizen receives.

Once again: I have not said she should not be in prison (although I do think sentencing should be looked at for prisoners of both sexes because I can see the merits of the argument for alternative sentences for non-violent offenders).

You seem to be arguing with something I haven't actually said.

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/11/2018 14:54

It must have been so frightening for a woman in prison to be disbelieved in this way.
It's frightening for any woman to be disbelieved in that way.

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 13/11/2018 14:52

Good questions, RedToothBrush, and I think the answer to your final one is a resounding yes.

It does that some people are failed literally from birth, and little is being done to ameliorate that that situation.

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/11/2018 14:52

We don't punish children for the crimes of their parents.
And no we shouldn't punish children for their parent's crime but what do you suggest? A pregnant woman is sentenced to prison - do you keep her out until the baby is born?

Arguably a child whose dad is in prison is also being punished, or a baby whose mother serves longer than the 18 months that she can keep the child with her for.

What is the answer? Yes of course there should be adequate medical care. But I don't see the argument for treating criminals more leniently just because they are pregnant.

Weetabixandshreddies · 13/11/2018 14:47

Saskia no not aimed at you. Aimed at the OP who wrote

pregnant women shouldn't be in prison in the first place, unless they've done something very seriously wrong, which the vast majority haven't.

I don't agree that pregnant women shouldn't be in prison. If the crime that they have committed carries a prison sentence then they should have to serve that sentence.

Original poster
hackmum · 13/11/2018 14:46

Weetabix: "I know of several women who were told that they weren't in labour or who were turned away from the hospital for not being in established labour."

I've come across that too. In fact, the Guardian did quite a big piece on it a few months ago:

www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2018/jan/15/i-knew-i-was-in-labour-why-are-women-being-turned-away-from-hospital-during-childbirth

Midwives tend to believe that they recognise the signs of labour by how much noise a woman is making, or whether she's showing obvious distress - but in fact, not all women behave the same way in labour, and labour can progress at different speeds. It must have been so frightening for a woman in prison to be disbelieved in this way.

OP posts:
RedToothBrush · 13/11/2018 14:45

Why are the medical staff who are employed in prison not trained to be able to cope with maternity problems and issues?

Why if there is captive female population of a large number - which you are responsible for, and are particularly vulnerable, and aren't screened for pregnancy and have a abnormally rate of mental health issues and complex health needs which are not representative of the population as a whole - is this not standard?

Why is there a distinct lack of data in this area?

Why is this not publically available information as its important for the provision and planning of services and support for female prisoners?

Why is there insufficient support in prison for mothers and babies?

Why isn't there better long term better strategic planning for those children, who are far more likely to end up in the care system and then the prison system themselves?

Why?

Is it because our thought process when it comes to women prisoners is idiotic, short termist, chronically underfunded and fundamentally flawed?

SaskiaRembrandtWasFramed · 13/11/2018 14:44

silentcrow I suspect it's also a horrendous liability for insurance purposes - where does the buck stop when a woman or her child dies? Or if the child is disabled in some way which is attributable to prison life?

It must be a case of if not when that happens. The breech birth described in the article had the potential to go horrifically wrong. If it was the case that a child ended up with otherwise preventable disabilities because of the negligence of the prison service they would surely have a case to sue.

53rdWay · 13/11/2018 14:42

Most mothers are in there for short sentences in the first place daisy which is why things like M&B units exist. A woman serving life in prison isn’t going to be able to keep her baby anyway.

Swipe left for the next trending thread