Ffs lib dems

Or because people just don’t give a fuck

So you did no impact assessment, and you didnt ask the women who will be negatively affected. Did you bother to ask the Muslim or Jewish lib dems how self ID affects them?

You don't actually understand self ID, do you? It means a person born as a man states he identifies as a woman, and from that point forwards he has to be treated as if he were a biological woman.
No surgery, no hormones.
Womens rights are toast, because people wont engage their brain, or stop and think.

Wrong, Trans Women are Women, and Trans Women are Adult Human Females
You can’t argue with stupid.

Food I don’t think there is much to say really apart from the whole email is a pack of bollocks
Then sign off with fuckity bye
Cos otherwise you will just be a transphobe whatever you say

Why should their view trump the view of our trans members (who are larger in number) and of the democratic decision of conference?

It's the age old question - how do you balance voters within the party and voters outside the party.

I have been voting for 30 years and have only ever voted Lib Dem, but I could no more vote for a party that refused to recognise the existence of biological sex than I could vote for a party that thought that God made the Earth 4000 years ago.

Do midwives designate sex now ?
Jeez they got the power

Good to have it stated so clearly that you don't care how many people have gender dysphoria. Neatly sidestepping the fact that there has been an unprecedented increase in numbers and also totally ignoring the fact that coming out as trans is nothing like coming out as gay or lesbian, given the medicalisation involved.

I got this email too and want to respond - what should I say?

I don't know a single lesbian who wants to engage with a lady penis.
They must all be transphobic or just lesbians

They are free to disagree RedToothBrush, but our policy was written with the influence of our own trans members, and passed by the membership at our conference. Its a democratic process, and the existence of some trans people who disagree with that policy isn't really relevant? Why should their view trump the view of our trans members (who are larger in number) and of the democratic decision of conference?

If you want to get into a debate on the concept of 'democracy', I'm quite happy to oblige.

For one, its not just a vote that counts, but also the circumstance and fairness of a vote that affects whether something can legitimatly be called 'democratic'.

The problem with a lot of party politics across the board is about accessibility of it to all groups. We have something of an issue, where party politics for a number of reasons, are closed to certain groups to get their point across. How can poor single women with young kids get to Brighton to go to the conference for example? Are they particularly under represented in local politics? Does this matter? (Clue: yes it does).

Trans people who knew about the vote were always going to be more motivated to take part in a vote on the subject. There are lots of people who aren't fully aware of the subject as its simply not on their radar. My local LD counsellor didn't believe me when I raised it with him. Democracy relies on people being well informed and consulted on big subjects, rather than putting something off the radar. (He's horrified by the totalitarianism of it btw)

And then there is the culture around political debate and freedom to express an opinion. There were lots of women who have been too intimidated to speak about this publically on twitter in their own name out of fear of being 'outed' and losing their job. Never mind to go to conference and vote on the subject. There have been examples where women have been chucked out (under the guise of a 'democratic vote' which more closely resembles a witch trial) of roles within the party for asking questions that others don't want to discuss.

You know, liberal democracy is about more than a gerrymandered vote in a climate of intimidation which excludes certain groups simply by virtue of their wealth don't you?

Because as a liberal democrat, you are shit hot on how to be inclusive and understanding obstacles to debate. And you understand that democracy is an ongoing process in which a vote is not necessarily the final point in the conversation. You know like the LDs entire Brexit policy follows. You don't get to pick and choose when a vote is democracy 'the end' and when a vote is part of an ongoing conversation of democracy. It would be rather hypocritical if you did take that line, now wouldn't it?

Its funny really. This stuff should be the underpinning principles and concerns of a party that calls itself the liberal democrats. Unfortunately its been highjacked by a bunch of people who care more about a fixed liberal identity where you all have to agree with a policy or 'fuck off'. The paradoxical identity crisis of the party could not demonstrate itself louder.

Care to comment further?

I also note that you still haven't responded as to what trans people who disagree with the policy should do, because they have 'the wrong views' about their own rights and what policy the party has.

Should they 'fuck off' too?

I don't really recognise the "concerns" of women who oppose trans equality/rights as being legitimate, in the same way that I and the party refuse to recognise the "legitimate concerns" of racists who have an issue with immigration.

Differences between races are just cosmetic. Differences between sexes are substantial and, assuming no massive evolutionary leaps in the near future, here to stay.

I'm very happy to support removal of unnecessary sex segregation and more unisex spaces. It's just it's not possible to have the conversation without being able to define what a woman is.

Recognising the existence of the female sex does not limit anybody's rights.

Because its not democratic because there are numerous in your party who are frightened to speak out. Possibly as they would be told to fuck off.
And if you are involved in the party you will know that despite this there are many in the party raising concerns.

bittermints
I'd also imagine someone who was racist would refuse a black nurse in all circumstances. If a transwoman wants to take my blood pressure, give me an injection, apply a bandage. No problem. Smear test? Not gonna happen. And that's the same for any man.

OrangeSnake, do you have any concerns about the huge increase in children, especially girls, being referred to the Tavistock with gender dysphoria in recent years?

No Bittermints I don't have concerns about that. And as a lgb person who is very comfortable in the gender/sex they were designated at birth, I seriously object to your insinuation (and the insinuation that lots of "gender critical" people spout) that the existence of trans people and assistance for young trans people is somehow homophobic and turning otherwise lgb people into trans people when all they are is gender noncomforning. Thats just simply a lie, and trying to turn lgb people against trans people and its disgusting. Please don't speak for me or any other lgb people because we don't share your agenda.

I think that people, even young people, should be free to explore themselves and life their lives as they wish. May that be as a gender non-conforming lesbian, a gender conforming gay man, a gender noncomforming bisexual trans man or a gender conforming straight trans women. It is no concern to me how many people have gender dysphoria.

There you go, Needmoresleep, you and your mum aren't important. Good to have that spelled out.

I strongly suspect if the general public had the full facts, i.e. that most men who identify as transgender are not going to have any surgery, they'd be right there with Needmoresleep and the rest of us on this thread. Women have a right to say no. It is not like a white person saying they don't want a black nurse. Women are the oppressed group here, in relation to men. We worked hard to get the right to say no and to get sex-segregated spaces for our own safety, privacy and dignity, and we're not giving it up without a fight.

No one thinks transwomen are actually female, come on now.

Just argue what you actually think, which is that men should be allowed to call themselves female.

Saying that males are actually female makes you look totally insane 🤪

So, @OrangeSnake is in full-on #NODEBATE you're all hateful transphobes for having any questions about the official party line mode.

It's pitiful that all you can do is post abuse towards women who have concerns, and just parrot the same meaningless phrases over and over. Sad as I am not to be able to vote Lib Dem, I can see it's the right decision.

Needmoresleep I honesty don't know what you expect my answer to your point to be? You may well not see your views on trans rights as being comparable to racists views on immigration, but the manner in which "GC" people talk, and the content of what you want means that to liberals like us thats all it comes across as. It just comes across as reactionary pushback against progress.

You may well have concerns about who you are changing with, and who your mother is sharing a ward with, but those concerns just simply aren't going to change our policy or our minds.

And there are more people like me, than those who are attracted by TWAW purism.

Even if this is true, which I would seriously doubt. Its the equivalent of saying that there are more anti-EU votes so we should abandon our pro EU stance and become a staunch brexit party. We just aren't going to do that, because it goes against our fundamental values and principles as a party. We have had a explicitly pro-trans stance since the 90s, and a pro-lgbt stance since the 70s.

Wrong, Trans Women are Women, and Trans Women are Adult Human Females.

Your ideology is a religion. You are spouting slogans. You even capitalise it like a slogan.

Trans Women are Adult Human Females.

😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

I don't think Orangesnake is endearing anyone to the Libdems with the complete dismissal of anyone's objections to self id or transwomen winning in womens sports like that charming Rachel.
I wonder why people like Orangesnake never seem to realise that we would like to hear arguments to the contrary, not the mantra TWAW, say it like you believe it or you are mean.

OrangeSnake, do you have any concerns about the huge increase in children, especially girls, being referred to the Tavistock with gender dysphoria in recent years?

2009/10: 97: 57 boys; 40 girls.

2017/8: 2519 total; 713 boys; 1806 girls.

I'm concerned about that, massively. It has all the hallmarks of social contagion. Many of them left to themselves would eventually work through their gender dysphoria by early adult life. A lot of them would turn out to be gay men or lesbians. Instead they're convincing themselves and their parents that they have 'been born in the wrong body' and that they need binders, hormones and surgery to put matters right. Irreparable damage will be caused by this affirmation approach. Clinicians are being told they can't question it, even when it's obvious there are lots of other issues, e.g. autism, history of abuse, mental health problems such as depression/anxiety, self-harm, eating disorders. This is a disaster waiting to happen and everyone who has pushed this agenda uncritically is complicit.

(And please don't start talking about 'better a trans child than a dead child'. The irresponsible use of suicide statistics is a very shocking feature of this debate, totally in contravention of normal practice recommended by the Samaritans and adopted in other circumstances by the media.)

Careful OrangeTrouserSnake your misogyny is not only showing it's lit up in neon....

You're not saying anything we haven't heard before and your no more convincing than your predecessors who come here to tell women what to think.

You're just doing an invaluable job of demonstrating the feebleness of your points to the lurkers out there and your arrogance in dismissing legitimate and demonstrable concerns over women's rights.

orange
What's the difference between a man and a woman?

Some men would find the step of ‘changing gender’ part of the thrill.
Women are ‘delusional’ for thinking men would go out of their way to cause harm.
Mmmm hmmmn