Trans Awareness Week

Reading on phone

1 in 10 men of all ages would not consider it harrassment to upskirt a female colleague at work.

At work!!!!

Fuck them quite frankly.

"And going back to rape culture, I agree with the view of the world's largest anti-sexual violence organisation as previously posted on here."

Which one?

And they are saying >> blame the perpetrators not some intangible force. Name the problem. The problem is men raping.

They avoid saying men in that extract which is interesting. I'd like to know which org this is please.

You miss the main point of the post>

Rape is at the more extreme end of a lot of other smaller things that are committed against women and girls all the time and not deemed by society to be "that bad".

Today in GQ (which I can't read due to my broadband settings is reported in the Independent " new report conducted by British GQ reveals that one in 10 men don't think upskirting is sexual harassment: "

I mean WTAF? 1 in 10! While for women >> absolutely this is experienced as a sexual violation.

So we have this disparity in how men and women experience the world. If we want to make lives better for women and girls the answer is to say upskirting is wrong and make it illegal.... Too often stuff like this women and girls are told there's no physical harm done, you're making a fuss.

Because society sees the sort of things that men do to each other more as definite crimes and the sorts of things that men do to women and girls as, well, it's not so bad is it? I mean it's not like he hit you or something. Something properly bad.

But what causes those conscious choices? The feeling that it’s normal , it’s cool, and that you will get away with it...which is what rape culture gives you. Your choices are not made in a vacuum but are a result of processing the information around you

Levels of rape vary strongly between different societies which suggest that society is partially a causal element.

Funnily enough it's pretty much the same argument I put forward about male violence being the work of individuals.

Ah it's womens fault that men are violent.Of course!
Not the absent fathers fault, oh no! Let's not even GO there :D

Ok, the mother of a male child has no influence in his upbringing, right?

And going back to rape culture, I agree with the view of the world's largest anti-sexual violence organisation as previously posted on here. They have over 1000 rape crisis centres so likely know what they're talking about.

In the last few years, there has been an unfortunate trend towards blaming “rape culture” for the extensive problem of sexual violence on campus. While it is helpful to point out the systemic barriers to addressing the problem, it is important not to lose sight of a simple fact: Rape is caused not by cultural factors but by the conscious decisions, of a small percentage of the community, to commit a violent crime.

Scott really, if you feel got upon by fem8nsits, try and look at life from a female perspective.

If I read the paper I see very little general blaming of men, I see little of men being treated and dismissed as a class. ( that may be because I a man a woman of course!)

I often see disrespect ...the starter of sexual discrimination... of women. From comments on a politicians clothes, to semi naked women and comments on their post baby bodies. The odd bloke sometimes thrown in on an advert.

If I watch the telly, there we have the token woman as a bit of love interest on the side. How many programmes or films have a token male who is so totally dumb? And don’t get me started about romcoms. Where the women discovers her true love

I would also challenge that it's a tiny minority of men who are violent.
It is if you measure violence as physical acts of the type that men tend to commit against men as well as others, and that are extremely illegal.

While I would contend that male violence is experienced by women and girls in a sliding scale from the minor to the severe that serves to keep us in line. And that the more "minor" acts of aggression/violence (and I inlcude non contact sex offences in this) towards women and girls by men are extremely common and a very large minority of men commit them. They must do as most women have had multiple scary / illegal encounters with blokes. So not many men are murderign women but an awful lot are following them home from work, whispering threats in their ear on the bus, wanking at them in the park etc. Societies minimisation of these types of situations and "boys will be boys" and victim blaming contributes to a climate where more serious offences are downlplayed as well.

This is "rape culture" and as an MRA I suspect you dont believe in it at all and draw a very definite line between "no harm done" and "string the bastard up" which is not how most women experience this stuff. Which is why listening to women is important. Not telling them to shut up / say it differently / put their focus elsewhere etc etc

Scott, Peach Yoghurt did a really good video explaining why NAMALT is such a lame thing for people to say seriously. You might want to check it out.

Ah it's womens fault that men are violent.
Of course!
Not the absent fathers fault, oh no! Let's not even GO there :D

Do you think irking you is a good reason for feminists to stop drawing attention to the reality and impact of male violence on women, girls, boys and men all over the world?

And there's also the fact that men brought up by women (sonoge parents) are disproportionately likely to offend and be violent, so there is a good argument that women need to help solve this issue.

I agree that, realistically, it will likely be men that have to sort it out due to the power demographics. However, it's the way it's used as an excuse to endlessly slate men that irks me.

Yes, most violence is committed by men but it's still not most men. Not even many proportionally. And feminists even have a derisive counter in NAMALT for when people point out the obvious.

Rationally, everyone in society has a role in reducing violence. Practically, those in positions of power have a greater role.those positions of power include law makers and people of high esteem in society , because they make the rules, the6 determine policing priorities. Because people listen and respect them.

So it really needs those, predom8natly Male, people to be stepping up. Showing respect for other people including women. Not excusing men who abuse their power. Not assuming that women always lie about abuse. Treating misogyny as a serious issue not someth8ng to be harrumphed over

Random numbers...I hope you can translate. A reboot may be needed.

I can fully understand why you don't want male patterns of violence being logged as female acts. I was more saying that if men have to tackle male violence (obv the majority of violence) then women have to do the same.

But really, I'd rather we tackle it as a society as we do with things like extremism which affect us widely.

Yes you're right

Women are totally cool with women and girls being murdered by other women and girls, we don't care about that at all

We do go on about when men kill women are girls > logically then not because we care about the victims then either but as a stick to beat men and boys with because we hate them.

MRA logic scott could you be more revealing? Everything you write shouts what your views are, while I'm sure you think you are being subtle and persuasive and oh so objective.

The reason women are concerned about male violence primarily is becasue the vast vast majority of violence committed against womena and girls (and men and boys and animals for that matter) is carried out by men.The vast vast vast majority of it. Sex offences are statistically almost always carried out by men > to the point that women doing it can and is seen as an aberration.

The reason for not wantign male violence inlucded in female crime stats is because it quickly erodes the stark statistical differential in male vs female levels of committing violent & sexually motivated crime and allows people, not looking at anyone in particular here,to say "women are as bad as men it's a people problem going on about it being men means you are a man hater".

We're trying to get the police to stop categorising male offenders who self-id as women as "women". That'll get the statistics down.

But unless you believe these individuals are genuinely female, you're not helping to reduce female violence. I'm talking about things like the horrific Marian Moustafa case which was pretty much ignored on here despite being mentioned several times - the cynical side of me presumes because it was a girl gang who killed her so no opportunity to blame men. In fact, I remember posters asking for the post to be moved out of fem chat and into news section (doubt this would've happened had it been a group of men who killed her).

It was horrendous. She'd already been attacked by the same gang and her sister's arm allegedly broken. And on the day she was beaten to death she asked the bus driver not to let the gang onto the bus (which he did). And then her sister mentioned that the killers were laughing on social media about her being on life support. Had there not been outrage in Egypt then I wonder if anything would've been done.

Apart from women are much more likely to be in poverty than men > recent UN rapporteur thing is clear on this + that it is a deliberate policy by the govt

Which is the intersection of poverty and sex

Women in poverty are more likely to be sole carers and provdiers for children etc

This is what intersectionality was supposed to be about before some privileged men saw it as a tool by which they could identify out of privilege and opt into some of the mechanisms that were put in place to try and give a leg up to those who were genuinely disadvantaged.

Why deal with classes rather than society as a whole when trying to solve problems? ANswer, because it’s usually more effective.

So sex based violence is one type of crime. Poverty inspired violence another. Drug related another. They have some different causes so different actions are needed.

I would argue that Having society rules that respect the differences between men and women helps reduce sex based violence. Would do nothing for poverty driven crime though.

"But a class is really just a lot of individuals who are all responsible for their own actions" - Ah, the Thatcher argument.

Loads of feminists discuss what they are personally doing to help with women's rights. Plenty of posts about good charities to support etc, women saying that they work for certain orgs, or volunteer for them. Women discussing meeting up for marches, or signing petitions, writing to MPs etc.

If you've managed to miss all of that your reading must be quite selective.
I assume you mean just on here and not that no eminists in the world in any capacity have ever taken and told about taking actions aimed at reducing violence against women?
There were protests in Ireland after the recent rape case for example - it was in the news yesterday.

I've never seen a feminist discuss what they personally are doing to combat the rise in female violence

We're trying to get the police to stop categorising male offenders who self-id as women as "women". That'll get the statistics down.

But a class is really just a lot of individuals who are all responsible for their own actions. I've never seen a feminist discuss what they personally are doing to combat the rise in female violence so it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the average man who is likely most occupied with providing for his family needs to concern himself with the actions of others.

Law enforcement is something that is dealt with by the police and legal system.

Men are the dominant class, as are white people, so the class with the power and privilege need to use that power and privilege to protect the classes that are more vulnerable.

That’s an incredibly simple fact to grasp, trying to twist it is just manipulating the conversation and shows how disengenuious certain posters are being.

Men aren't interested in sorting it out though.

It is framed as a "womens issue".

We have been trying since the dawn of time to get men to stop treating us in a variety of ways > part of the prevalence of male VAW stems from a dysfuntional view of women by men. VAW is worse in countries where women have less rights / are seen more as chattel. And yet still we are told we must sort it out. How exactly?

Men also seem to care little about violence against other men.

It's a bit odd.

Women saying men you need to sort this out, is more about, why dont;t men in general care about this? They run the world, not women, how is it up to us to stop something that we are not doing and we have so little power to stop? We have been trying for milennia and failed.

Ignoring the fact that men from low socioeconomic backgrounds are also more likely to commit violence, the common argument seems to be that because men as a class commit more violence they should as a class commit to solving it. By this logic, POC should all commit to tackling the increased crime rates exhibited by their class.

Agree with this @ScottCheggJnr

Both same argument.
If there's any increased crime rates in POC then all POC of should be responsible.
Same argument, right?