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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

How to raise a strong daughter

91 replies

AsMuchUseAsAMarzipanDildo · 12/11/2018 14:17

Long time lurker on this board and reading the thread on pathological altruism got me thinking about DD.

Daughter is nearly 2 and I tend to follow an Alfie Kohn “unconditional parenting” approach. I realise it sounds ridiculous learning how to parent from a book, but abusive parents, no role models etc.

Anyway, a lot of it is about teaching empathy. So instead of barking “share” at her when her and other children fight over toys, I’ll say “Can you see that Amy’s crying? I think she was enjoying that truck. What could we do to make her happy?” and DD is so kind that she’ll go and give the truck to Amy.

But I also worry that it’s teaching her to be a pushover and notice that it’s always her sharing, never other kids. I’ve also noticed that boys seem to definitely get a lot more acceptance and less discipline from their parents when they snatch her toy or barge her off the slide.

How do I teach her to be kind but not submissive?

I’ve got a few books suggested on the Mighty Girl website. Obviously her comprehension isn’t at the stage to fully engage with them but we’ll chat about female explorers and scientists. She has what I think is a fairly ungendered selection of toys and recently we’ve been watching programmes like “Catie’s Amazing Machines” together.

Has anyone here had any experience with this? Also suggestions for clubs, activities etc for her when she’s older? I'd love to take her to feminist talks etc when she’s older.

OP posts:
silkpyjamasallday · 12/11/2018 20:57

I do tell DD she is beautiful, not as often as I tell her she was brave or kind or clever or strong or funny, but I think as a mixed race girl she will struggle when she realises how few people in the media look like her, it does have an effect on self esteem and while I would prefer she didn't really care about how she looked that is inevitable in this society. Her hair seems to be gaining more Afro texture as it grows and I believe it is incredibly important that she loves her natural hair and doesn't feel the need to chemically treat it to fit in. I think she will need to feel beautiful in a world that will keep telling her she isn't, while promoting beauty as the most important thing in a woman. It's hard to counteract that message as a parent

DP has been the main SAHP for almost a year and she has seen us modelling an equal relationship at home, I think that is incredibly important as I didn't have that as a child. DP was raised solely by his late mother and I am so thankful to her for bringing him up with feminist principles which survived an adolescence spent in an misogynistic boys school atmosphere.

We've avoided the old Disney princess films, but she has watched the Princess and the Frog because that actually has a positive message about working hard for your dreams, and can help us start the conversation about race and class when she is older. Maui was also a hit and another strong female lead.

breastfeedingclownfish · 12/11/2018 20:56

I don't have daughters, only sons.

I tell them to work hard, that they need to be able to rely on themselves, support themselves and be accountable to themselves.

I look at where their strengths and weaknesses are, advise them re. building on both, without pointing out weaknesses explicitly.

I give them a hard time (sometimes) when they loll about. I am admittedly a bit puritan about laziness and lack of effort.

I tell them that where their many talents lie and that they will find their way in life, but that dedication and hard work, rather than pure talent, is the recipe for success.

I laugh at their jokes. I talk to them. I listen. I tell that they are handsome, funny and witty. I also tell them that when they are being a pain in the arse. I tell them that they are loved. I tell them when I am wrong. They know I am not perfect and I don't pretend to be.

Now they are teenagers, we talk politics, including feminism. I think you have to expect disagreement but welcome further debate. Sometimes I can't be arsed and say so. One son had been 'influenced' by MRA types for a bit. That took some time but he now agrees with "mum's type of feminism" now. Grin

I would hope that I would do exactly the same for the daughters I never had.

I think the people pleasing / be kind thing is probably the most damaging thing for a young woman/girl. So try very hard to think how you would treat a boy and try to do the same.

I did have many discussion re sex education with my eldest sons and that means that the conversion is still open. My youngest son is more embarassed, probably because the older brothers were talking to him about it. They get there. But obviously I have to be sex specific sometimes. Actually, at junior school my eldest wanted to know what the girls were being taught, so it was me who told him about periods. His reaction on learning was similar to what mine had been.

So talking a lot, I think, is the way.

Bookishandblondish · 12/11/2018 20:33

One of the most assertive women I managed had been brought up by parents who asked her opinion and listened to it.

On everything such as holidays/ what to have for dinner etc/ clothes - you name it. She said they had family conferences about decisions She expected to be listened to and heard but not necessarily agreed with. I learnt a lot from her even though I was her manager.

So I’d say it’s letting your daughter have a voice and opinion and not rubbishing or minimising it, but also not necessarily just rolling over.

MrsTerryPratcett · 12/11/2018 20:28

I clearly didn't fix that Sad

MrsTerryPratcett · 12/11/2018 20:28

It’s fucking hard trying to be a good parent when you haven’t got role models from your own childhood and have bugger all confidence.

Fixed that for you Grin

FWIW I try to model assertiveness. We also have books like Little People Big Dreams, Emmeline Pankhurst and Ada Twist Scientist.

I also ask her what she thinks. At 7 this works. So she was recently in an altercation with a boy who was trying to get her to move. Because he wanted her spot. He kicked her a few times so she gave him a shove and didn't move. I was told all about this by the school. I asked her, "do you think I'm going to be angry about what you did?". She said, "no". Damn right. I asked, "what if you had kicked him first to get his spot?" "I'd never do that" "No DD, you wouldn't". Job done. We did talk about what else she could have done. But there's a place for kindness and there's a place for standing your ground.

LonnyVonnyWilsonFrickett · 12/11/2018 20:21

You don't sound like an idiot at all, you sound brilliant!

It's counter-intuitive, but also hanging back. Letting her work it out for herself. Letting her fall and fail, literally and metaphorically. I don't think you can build a feminist without resilience.

LaundryLaundryLaundry · 12/11/2018 20:18

Here we practice taking turns over sharing but we also have rules about no meaning no (early lessons in consent). This means that if they have toys they do not to want to share, that's fine. The flip side is if they want something someone else has and that person says no, we talk about how it's okay to say no. With visitors it's always easier to ask that any toys they don't want to share are put away first then come out again afterwards.

This is quite different to an approach that teaches sharing and has caused a few problems with others who expect a parent to intervene and get them the toy they want. If I do I intervene it's usually along the lines of asking whether we can take it in turns and if it's still no I explain to the other child that the toy is important to my DC and that they are welcome to play with something else.

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/11/2018 20:11

You really don't sound like an idiot, op.
I think a lot of people have experienced this thing of not having had the kind of parenting you would want to emulate so having to think about and look around for ways to do it differently.
And this openness to discussing it is exactly why you will do it better Flowers

AsMuchUseAsAMarzipanDildo · 12/11/2018 20:06

Thank you all, this thread has been really useful. I can see where many of you are coming from in not making her responsible for other people’s happiness. I guess that was why it wasn’t sitting well with me - I felt as if by trying to teach her empathy, I was in fact teaching her to be subservient. I’ll try to keep it more simple and about turn-taking instead.

I realise I probably sound like a total idiot in my OP. It’s fucking hard trying to be a good parent when you haven’t got role models from your own childhood and have bugger all confidence. That’s why I really don’t want to pass this on to her.

I like the idea of having interests outside of school and the home too. I imagine that could help her to feel more self-assured in her abilities and have a wider friendship group.

Off to track down Jean Liedloff's The Continuum Concept

OP posts:
HopeHopity · 12/11/2018 19:50

I think another way of looking at it is thinking about what made us strong or what didn't.
For me:
Made me strong:

  • my brother always treated me like an equal. He was older, he was favoured by parents, he always had my back, we learnt to cycle together, we did everything together. Not once he imply I was "less able"
  • my dad and brother took me to the woods every weekend
  • scouts and lots of groups to make friends outside school
  • my grandad who loved me exactly as I was
  • my aunt, who is absolutely perfect in every way, learning more and more at age 75, hard working, loving, strong.

Not so strong:

  • lack of attention from parents
  • zero praise from parents
  • very strict upbringing
  • ignored a lot
  • rarely told I was good, pretty, smart
  • shouted at a lot

And I try to do more from column A raising my DC

Beamur · 12/11/2018 17:54

Lots of good tips in this thread.
I'd add, not insisting that your DD is 'nice' - they don't have to smile if they don't want, bodily autonomy is really important - and you have to respect it too, choice - clothes/hair etc. I think teaching your daughter not to be a 'pleaser' is important. Yy to modelling strong behaviour and equal relationships.
I tell my DD she is beautiful (because she is) but I also praise her other qualities and tell her how much she is loved and valued. She has good self esteem and is happy with how she looks - I hope that lasts.

BertrandRussell · 12/11/2018 17:46

I think one of the most important things is, if possible, to model a good, equal relationship.

silentcrow · 12/11/2018 17:21

Definitely hobbies, I'm convinced peer groups outside school make a huge difference. Not just from observing my own girls but the most resilient kids I know in school all have a "something" that takes them out of school and family life where they can learn to negotiate with new people. Plus anything that takes practice - music, sport, etc - eventually means you learn to deal with a failure or knock back at some point.

Teach persistence and commitment and praise those, and as ScienceRoar says, talk about bodies in terms of what they can do rather than how they look (active rather than passive). I think you have to walk the walk, though - if you never stick at anything or are constantly fretting about your looks, you're not going to end up with a resilient kid.

Echobelly · 12/11/2018 16:52

I am certainly working on showing my daughter that you don't have to, indeed shouldn't, capitulate to an angry man, that it's not her job to have to manage/soothe male anger, and that it's OK for her to be angry as well.

captainproton · 12/11/2018 16:43

You are her biggest influence. How you are as a woman will influence how she thinks a woman ought to be.

So if you want her to grow up confident, able to hold her own, not become a domestic salve or put men first then you don’t.

When my dd was 4 I asked her what she wanted to be when she grew up and she told me I was silly because mummies don’t work. I realised she had no idea I used to have a good career before becoming a mum, so I decided to get a part time job and show her mums do work, and they don’t rely on daddies!

ScienceRoar · 12/11/2018 16:12

I did the same emotional intelligence/unconditional parenting style with my children, who are now older, but still children living at home. Neither of them are pushovers; quite the opposite. They will learn from you how to have the best chance of being treated equitably without being pushy themselves by copying you. I also found the book "How to talk so kids will listen and listen so kids will talk" helpful on the practical side.

I try to avoid praise, never called them clever or beautiful. I talk about actions and consequences - "You trained really hard, and you won that triathlon", rather than "Wow! You're so fast!" (trust me that it's warmer than it sounds when combined with a smile and a hug), or on the negative side "Your hit your sister, and that really hurt her".

I now have two young ladies who seem to be secure in themselves, and I have never heard either of them complain about the way that they look. They know that my love for them is not contingent on their beauty, cleverness or athletic performance.

I have my challenges with them, but trust me - being pushovers isn't one of them.

Jagblue · 12/11/2018 16:04

I don't tell my son he is beautiful or handsome and I don't understand why most Mum's of girls do.
I do tell him how much I love him and how much I enjoy his company.
Beauty is subjective and I don't want my son to value looks over personality. He is 13 now and good looking but by next week he can be a giant walking pimple who knows.

LangCleg · 12/11/2018 15:45

Make sure that she spends time in the company of women, away from men. When I look back on my childhood now, I'm sure that all the time I spent with my mum, my nan and my aunties and (female) older cousins gave me a solid grounding in not worrying too much about being outspoken or what da menz thought and all the rest of it. Female-only time, I think, is the most precious gift any mother could give her daughter.

Semifeatured · 12/11/2018 15:31

Also agree with JagBlue. Praise, praise, praise and then praise some more. Once they have self confidence, they can figure out their own shit.

Semifeatured · 12/11/2018 15:29

I leave them to it. They learn for themselves. Dd was 1 and a little boy and his Mum (a good friend) came over to visit. The little boy was 2, and he kept trying to hug my dd. DD slapped him and said NO. I didn't intervene. Neither did my friend. She was handling it perfectly herself at the ripe old age of 1.
Parents intervene too much. They find their own balance when left to it.

Jagblue · 12/11/2018 15:26

Gosh dump the book. At age 2 they aren't nor should they be thinking about other kids feelings in a way that makes them responsible for ensuring the other child happiness negating their own.
At this age they are supposed to be selfish and self envolved they are simply too young.
They can't control their bowels let alone feelings.
If you want to raise a strong person parent with humour, integrity and give them time lots of time.
Strong people have good self esteem and believe.
If you make them a priority they value themselves, if you give them your time they feel valued. If you talk to them, share your experiences and above all love them unconditionally they grow very strong.
Girls and boys need exactly the same things to thrive in life.

Sipperskipper · 12/11/2018 15:25

I tend to encourage turn taking with DD (18 months). Rather than having to hand over whatever she has, the other child waits their turn. And vice versa, if another child has something she wants, she has to wait her turn.

I also always tell her how proud I am of her for how hard she tries at everything. Thinking about it I actually never tell her she is beautiful (although she is!), I tend to just tell her how much I love being her mum.

Not sure if she understands any of the above though!

HopeHopity · 12/11/2018 15:22

As @drspouse says, absolutely nothing wrong with telling a child she is beautiful, amongst other qualities. I say he is beautiful, flowers are beautiful, that made me smile so it is beautiful. Things can be beautiful without being just looks, it can be a sunrise or after they do something kind.
I do, however, don't say to a child I just met that, I use beautiful as something you realise after a while, and not the first impression of something or someone

TheCountessofFitzdotterel · 12/11/2018 15:21

""X is really good at gymnastics because they're short and bendy, whereas you're really good at swimming because you're tall and strong", we talk about what the body can do, rather than what it looks like."

I think that's brilliant. It doesn't only teach her to feel good about herself, it also teaches her that no one way is best.

HopeHopity · 12/11/2018 15:18

What @ElfinStardust said, I am personally not sure about the "what can we do to make X happy" approach.