Rod Liddle: I’m identifying as a young, black, trans chihuahua, and the truth can go whistle

I think transgenderism as an idea is founded on hugely oppressive ideas and basic appropriation. I have no respect for it as an ideology at all.

I accept there are a number of individuals who struggle with gender dysphoria to the degree they are partially helped by a GRC and other measures, and I have no particular impetus to campaign to row back on that provision.

I can see no justification whatsoever for opening up access to that very specific measure to the wide cohort that would be able to claim it under self ID, and the consequences of the further entrenching of Genderist ideas in all aspects of society.

rightreckoner yes yes, see where you're coming from.

Still happy to look for a compromise when the majority of this group reject the TRA and agree to work with women.

Yes me too. And I stand by my position that sharing articles from a sexist, misogynist, child abuse apologist ridiculing the very nature of transgenderism is not the way to go about it.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale I think it's tricky because since the GRA in 2004 the law has recognised trans women as female. Therefore even if the proposed self ID law does not go ahead, the law will remain as it is. Which is that TWAW and can use female spaces

Jezebelz I think you are right. A terrible mistake was made when this nonsense and untruth was enshrined in law. But it was and I can't see trans people agreeing to unravel this now. But they have chosen, or their (possibly self-appointed) representatives have chosen to barge forward even further and seek Self-ID, wilfully tearing down protections for women and girls against predatory men.

I would have a lot more sympathy with the trans movement if they joined with Johnny Best et al in their campaign to get Stonewall back into their lane. If they let women speak without throwing bigot at us. But so far they haven't.

Before I knew anything about this I couldn't have cared less about old school transsexuals. They were probably in my changing room and I wouldn't have cared all that much. Now that I'm not allowed to use the word woman to describe myself and other women, well, the whole lot can go to hell.

Still happy to look for a compromise when the majority of this group reject the TRA and agree to work with women.

Maybe. I'd say that's a fairly fine line if we're talking about broad brush things like this. I think ridicule is limited in its usefulness, but I don't think it's something that anyone can reasonably expect to be shielded from, especially if a movement they are a part of is being used to press for ever more ridiculous things.

Agree. I think most of the ideology is absurd. They don't care about my feelings about how much their nonsense is damaging women's rights. I'm not going to tip toe around it. Sorry. Other people can do what they like.

And this whole "I have a right never to be offended" attitude is a huge part of how we've got here.

OT, but in an idle moment I did an image search for 'young, black, trans chihuahua' - as hoped it included some cute dog pictures but surprisingly included one of Jenni Murray who, it turns out, has a pair (one looking very grumpy), from a DM piece from a couple of months ago.

www.dailymail.co.uk/home/event/article-6086943/Jenni-Murray-doesnt-want-friends-interviewees.html

Maybe. I'd say that's a fairly fine line if we're talking about broad brush things like this. I think ridicule is limited in its usefulness, but I don't think it's something that anyone can reasonably expect to be shielded from, especially if a movement they are a part of is being used to press for ever more ridiculous things.

Floral, arguing that the current trans ideologies leads to such ridiculous situations is different to saying trans people are ridiculous in general.

EmpressAdultHumanFemale I think it's tricky because since the GRA in 2004 the law has recognised trans women as female.

Therefore even if the proposed self ID law does not go ahead, the law will remain as it is. Which is that TWAW and can use female spaces.

Asking trans women to lobby for a third space is asking them to fight to remove rights they already have. Like asking gays and lesbians to fight to make gay marriage illegal.

I cannot see women being content with the existing situation any longer after all the publicity surrounding the GRA amends but at the same time I cannot see any other end goal to fight for.

What are your thoughts?

It's always nice to see consensus reached, thanks Jez for being willing to listen and admit when you got it wrong :)

I get that EmpressAdultHumanFemale - on that we are on the same page.

Good. Then how do we separate the few old-style transsexuals from the flood who are taking the piss? Only a very few of them are actually speaking up against the TRAs to say "No, we're not female & nobody can change sex. Give us a third space."

I think if more of them did that, and if Stonewall spent some of their massive amounts of funding on campaigning for third spaces & setting up domestic violence / rape services for transpeople, then most of the women who are currently worried sick and angry would be right behind them.

ridicule that person Bernard, not all trans.

I think that's a fascinating approach, and that is highly likely to get someone deleted on this forum in the current climate. Whereas ridiculing the extreme notions that identity politics throws up is a critique of an idea, not a person, which is arguably less offensive than ripping the piss out of Clymer for their odd views and nasty looking purse.

I get that EmpressAdultHumanFemale - on that we are on the same page.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly ridicule might make one feel better in the short term but rarely leads to the ridiculer achieving what they want.

Rod Liddle's job is Chief Ridiculer for the Times. If we are going to read his pieces, we know it's going to be ridicule.

Then ridicule that person Bernard, not all trans.

We’re in a world where a person who is evidently male believes that having a gold purse makes cashiers believe they are a woman

A little ridicule is in order

life's complicated / shades of grey / we need to compromise

But 95% of us will have had no problem compromising in the days when we were talking about a small number of males with diagnosed gender dysphoria who were highly likely to have had surgery.

It's nowadays, when we're talking about any male who wants to squeeze under the trans umbrella occasionally being able to have full access to women's spaces / award schemes etc that we have a problem. Even if we said that only post-surgery transsexuals with a GRC would now be allowed into women's communal changing rooms / shelters / YMCA dormitories etc, how would we even begin to police that? The trust has gone.

OldCrone I don't think it's a black and white argument. Every woman's views will be on a scale. As sceptical pointed out it's a grey area (much like gender!)

Personally I feel uncomfortable with the ridicule in RL's article, but that doesn't mean I think it's fair for a trans woman to compete in female sport.

I would start to question whether I could be wrong?

Because you base your sense of right and wrong/your personal views on who they align with? And change them accordingly so abandoning your sense of right and wrong and replanning if you suddenly find a view of yours is held by someone you're not wholly sure is popular?

That's a bit weird beyond the age of about 15 tbh. Most adults just figure out it out for themselves and have the confidence to stand by what they believe regardless of who thinks what of them. Maybe you could use a bit of self esteem boosting.

Hahaha, Jez is urging us to consider compromise. Lolol. Jez seems to struggle with the distinction between agreeing on a specific point with someone who is naturally your opponent, and reliquinshing your boundaries and those of every other woman because of the sad faces of some males.

Oh, these complicated waters of human interaction! Why can't we just all be compliant?! Well, just us, obvs.

I wasn't impressed by the article. Or the whole discussion about the guy identifying as 49. It comes too close to making fun of trans people as a group and dismissing them as ridiculous. We may disagree with what is happening in terms of access to women's spaces but I don't think it is fair or helpful to characterise them in this way.

I would start to question whether I could be wrong.

Have you ever questioned whether you could be wrong? Because there are some fairly vile people on your side of the argument.

Or he will be seen as an outrageous transphobe whose antiquated views do not keep up with the times.

Doesn't that apply to us all, Jez?

life's complicated / shades of grey / we need to compromise

Now this I agree with!

I forgot the bit about them flouncing out, slamming the door.......... and then coming back 5 minutes later to shout at you again

You know when your teenagers won't let it drop? When they're that age where subtlety and nuance can''t be seen through their rage and the hormonal soup? When everyone know's they're wrong but no matter how reasonable you are and however much you explain that life's complicated / shades of grey / we need to compromise, they can't hear it. You're wrong and horrid and bigoted and I hate you

This thread's a bit like that.