Sportswear..question on behalf of dh

Additionally, I'm not sure it's a bad thing for people to see a woman sweaty and covered in muscles. (the one in the pic has like a 40 pack). Maybe for once we could focus less on the male gaze and more on the little girl's gaze. What does she when she sees the woman in the picture.

If a woman with breasts and very little belly fat wore a loose shirt to fit her breasts it would be massive on her stomach. Women's bodies are different to men. Men don't carry much fat in their thighs and their hips are different. (not my pic but was googling thigh gap!). I'm prepared to believe they wouldn't for a second wear anything that was even slightly less than perfect for their bodies.

In fact, feminists should question it.

No doubt, but when the question is actually coming from a man saying that women who want respect should dress a certain way it should get in the world.

True about the design to win. Although the fact that male athletes wear different things suggests that maybe wearing what is essentially a bra and knickers isn’t vital to running fast. Tbh, I think it’s now extremely ingrained. That is what a running outfit looks like and female athletes just wear it. However, on a structural level, I think it works to disempower them, just as a lot of female clothing does. Doesn’t mean everyone wearing it is being abused or anything. I just meant that overall, sports is a man’s world and it’s definitely not offensive to question how some of the traditions and customs have evolved. In fact, feminists should question it.

Surely if there was a performance issue, men would dress the same.

Men don't wear bras and I bet most women would find running a bit of an issue without one. Almost like the bodies are different.

I do think some costumes have been sexualised for some sports where being decorative is part of the sport. But I actually think with the sports that show off the most flesh there must be a reason for it. Running women wear the smallest amount of clothes and if you're competing in the Olympics after training your entire life you're not going to wear something that wasn't designed within an inch of its life to get you across the line fastest just so you look slightly sexier crossing it. Even in cases where there is abuse behind the scenes, it just wouldn't make sense. The coach wants them to win. it's a uniform.

Why on earth is it their responsibility to "teach men" ???

Of course people’s ‘choices’ aren’t made in a vacuum and there’s nothing wrong with discussing that. Daft to suggest otherwise.

Yes the sponsorship issue is a big point. Even those who don’t have sponsorship need to maximise their chances of getting it. The idea that it’s a totally free choice and that these are simply the best outfits for performing that particular sports is no different to saying that sex work is just a career option (and totally avoids confronting why men and women are treated so differently in that particular context).
Gymnastics is particularly disturbing because the competitors are so very young, and it’s only years later when horror-stories like the US coach-abuse comes out. Overall, the skimpy costumes contribute to women being objectified and mistreated in sport. It’s by no means the sole reason why it happens, but it sure as hell doesn’t help empower them.

I’ve always wondered why female gymnasts have to wear tiny leotards that show half their asses off (and make-up, and sparkly hairspray) when the men are just fine in a vest and shorts. It’s such bullshit.

I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned the sponsorship/fashion element of it. It's in the interest of the sponsor that their garments look good (which loose/frumpy clothing generally doesn't) and the obvious benefit for the individual being sponsored is shedloads of money.

I remember reading for example that Anna Kournikova used to make more money from sponsorship than her prize winnings, and she was definitely one to 'flaunt it'.

Stefanie Marsh in the Times did a story a few years back on the rise in popularity of cheerleading in the UK. She found it odd, but thought it was for girls who were looking for an activity they could take part in that also enabled them to stay as part of the crowd.

Anyway, UK cheerleading outfits are more modest than the American versions and are not skintight, figure hugging etc (though I suppose it's less about running for long periods of time as with other athletic gear).

No worries.
I think professional sports are a world away from amateur sports. Many of these women have little actual control over what they wear. Their coaches will often tell them what to wear and if they are also involved in a sexual relationship with them, it gets even more complex. Things are better in the UK I think, but in many poorer countries, these women have effectively been groomed from a young age. They are from poor backgrounds and cannot just leave if they don’t like it. The sports industry as a whole gives men a lot of access to vulnerable women. The uniforms for eg gymnastics or beach volleyball are so high-cut that they require women to have all their pubic hair waxed off as it would show otherwise. There is no need for that.
But in amateur sports, of course people should be free to wear exactly what they like and nobody should get harassed for wearing a certain outfit.

I've been speaking mainly from my personal experience and that often fewer clothes is just easiest for competing. As I've said, I would be against any kind of sexing-up of sport to exploit women's sexuality and to attract more viewers. Whilst I do exercise myself I don't follow sport a lot so I don't know anything about the professional side of things and it's not the angle I was coming from, although I do know about the gymnastics team's abuse but don't see that has anything to do with the OP's questions about what athletes wear.
Apology accepted, we're good, it simply strikes a chord with me as I get sick of being harassed by men when I'm out running etc and they do it no matter what you wear too, but if I felt I could do it safely I'd run in pants in the summer. Have a good evening.

www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/afp/article-5157511/Sexual-abuse-sports-notorious-cases.html

Apologies for the DM link. Mentions the gymnastics case among others.

Not saying that you can’t wear what you like. Just that there is systematic sexual abuse that goes on in many sports and women are overwhelmingly the victims. The skimpy uniforms are simply a part of the way the sport industry treats women.

There is a fair bit of grooming that goes on. Many female athletes marry their coaches, often with a substantial age gap. They are trained from a very young age and some have spoken out about misogyny at an older age.

Okay I will give a little bit. Basically to say they choose to wear it misses the point that women in sport are consistently devalued and degraded and the expectations to wear certain clothes reflects that. Maybe not all athletes care but there have been high profile reports of sexual abuse of female athletes within the industry- eg the US gymnastics team. It’s not just a free choice.

Sorry for offending you. The neoliberal or liberal part is the ‘they choose to wear it’ argument. That’s often made in relation to other forms of oppression such as sex work or unpaid care.

Anyway hope that clarified some things.

Peakpants how convenient for you. As I've said, would love to hear your analysis of how my defending women's right to do sport in whatever helps them get the job done best is 'neoliberalism' some time.

cockblocker see my last post. You have spectacularly missed my point. Honestly too knackered to enter into full blown debate. Have a good evening.

But please, do point out to me what I've said that is so 'neoliberal', I'm all for being reeducated so that I can one day be a proper feminist like yourself.

As for the OP's DH thinking the women were being degraded, that may be the case but if so the questions were phrased very badly, and they haven't come back to engage which means it may just be a plop.

Answers like this make me wonder how feminist some of these posters are.
Such a pathetic thing to say and you're completely missing my point. I'm clearly not saying women should be allowed to dress sexy if they want to in sport, I'm saying it's the last thing on any professional athlete's mind when they're competing, and they should be respected for what they do regardless. But yeah, tear another woman down because she's got a different perspective to you, I'm clearly just saying athletes are just attention whores and choice is all that matters, my bad.

Peakpants
Answers like this make me wonder how feminist some of these posters are. Come on- they choose to and they don’t give a shit if men wank over them? Nice bit of neoliberalism there!
Not sure what point you're trying to make so aggressively here by attacking me and my calling out a victim-blaming mentality for being 'neoliberal'. Do you really think female athletes at the top of their game prioritise looking sexy over winning, and by your logic I'm therefore condoning them for that? You seem to have missed all the other points I made about wearing the best thing for the job and the male gaze not being your priority when taking part in sport, how annoying it is to have men perv at you when you are doing sport and their attention is the last thing you want. The question in the OP included 'How does that help teach men to respect them for their athletic capability?' - is it the female athlete's job to 'teach men' to respect them by dressing modestly?! Shouldn't they be respected anyway? Running in particular is going to be a lot easier in short shorts/pants because they won't chafe against the thighs - I know, I've run 3 half-marathons, which is a lot less than these professionals. I don't see it's the female athlete's responsibility to prevent men from having erections whilst they're doing their job. I would of course be against any kind of clothing that was being forced on women in order to sex-up sport for the titillation of men.

What about gymnastics? Don’t the women get judged on appearance as well as performance?

Ok, I get your point with that. Not sure what the answer would be. Couldn't force them to wear more- taking away personal choice of what they wear seems counter productive. Lots of the cropped top wearing at the moment is about showing off muscles as having abs is very 'in'.

It’s not an outright free choice though is it? I am too tired to argue this but female athletes are continually undermined and devalued. See eg the reaction to certain tennis outfits. It’s more about the structural discrimination against women, which is why I never take ‘choice’ arguments that seriously.