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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Janice Turner: "When self-identification trumps biology, men can be women, white can be black and age really will be just a number"

157 replies

TimeLady · 10/11/2018 06:54

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/if-identity-politics-win-a-man-of-69-can-be-49-bqh6rsjqw?shareToken=4fd4aac12f70686bfe4311abe13e7c50

Pretty much backs up what Trevor Philips was saying last month

OP posts:
Ineedacupofteadesperately · 10/11/2018 14:12

How did Butler think the species reproduces and has offspring? Mind boggling.....

hipsterfun · 10/11/2018 13:36

Unless you subscribe to the miserable, blinkered concept of cultural appropriation, piecing together your identity from diverse sources is one of life’s profound joys.

Well said, Janice.

Now, I’m off to listen to the final two hours of that JCJ long interview.

hipsterfun · 10/11/2018 13:21

All of that self-indulgent imagining without testing or proof needs to be confined to art and amusement and stay they fuck out of science and law.

I’ve come to think of PoMo thought as being to the rest of intellectual endeavour what flexibility exercises are to competitive athletes.

LikeDust · 10/11/2018 13:14

They really are performing their privilege, while women cheering them on are displaying their female socialisation very clearly.

So true. I also think Butler's actual influence is contrived from people like Natacha Kennedy orchestrating WikiBullshit.

Fallingirl · 10/11/2018 12:53

I cant see how, in the passage you quoted, Butler is doing anything but using fancy language to describe what users of common speech call “socialization into sex roles.”

That’s pretty much it. For what it’s worth, Butler never ever claimed gender is a free-for-all. And she was adamantly against any notion that gender is a subjective feeling.

When I first came across gender ideology 10 years ago, gender ideologist were very critical of Butler. I have no idea whether Butler has much to say about gender ideology now. She hasn’t focussed on gender since the 1990’s.

Using a Butlerian or performative approach to gender now, I would say the way TRAs aredoing genderis extremely masculine. The sense of entitlementthey display looks an awful lot like performance of ‘manhood’, not womanhood.

Unfortunately Butler did not pay much attention to power structures, that any performances of gender exist within. I seems pretty clear to me, that the only reason gender ideology, or more specifically the claim that men are women if they say they are, is gaining such traction, is precisely because it is primarily white, middle to upper middle class men who are driving it.

They really are performing their priviledge, while women cheering them on are displaying their female socialisation very claerly.

Weezol · 10/11/2018 12:20

I'd very much like to identify out of my disability. I can, theoretically, 'pass', but it wouldn't change the fact that I'm in pain every day because of it.
Presentation doesn't change biological reality.

QuentinWinters · 10/11/2018 12:18

I think the 69 year old wanting to be 49 is very clever satire. The reason I think that is because of the Tinder reference. As if younger women are put off him because his profile says 69, if it said 49 they would all want him (ignoring the fact his physical attributes would be identical and plenty of younger women like older men,). It's very cotton-ceiling ish.

nauticant · 10/11/2018 12:07

Hmmm, age fluid had already been written several times. Should have gone to Specsavers.

nauticant · 10/11/2018 12:05

Sound like you're wanting to be age fluid FermatsTheorem. And why not?

Idkwtf · 10/11/2018 11:59

Age fluid?
where do I sign up 😁

Floisme · 10/11/2018 11:58

I know it's not the point of the thread but I'm getting a bit grumpy at all these posts about claiming your pension. Do you know how much you would get? Here's the clue - the guy has said he'll give his up if he wins (I think he's in The Netherlands but I assume they're comparable).

I don't want to derail but seriously - I'm one of the lucky ones in a half decent pension scheme and I'm still way better off working as long as I can.

terryleather · 10/11/2018 11:57

Janice is a solid gold Star

As to our sanctimonious derailer, they only do it to annoy because they know it teases , to paraphrase (badly) my beloved Alice In Wonderland

Bloomini · 10/11/2018 11:50

Can I self-identify as a new profession when looking for my next role? I'm a gardener but I feel like an engineer.

FermatsTheorem · 10/11/2018 11:43

I'm going to identify as age-fluid - 67 for pension purposes, 37 for going-on-the-pull purposes.

Idkwtf · 10/11/2018 11:32

From the article:
People have identified as the opposite gender, cross-dressed and subverted gender roles throughout history. But in the 2004 Gender Recognition Act trans people were granted full membership. Anyone with a diagnosis of gender dysphoria could after two years apply for a new birth certificate.
No one thought a trans person could literally change sex, rather this was a legal fiction to protect, rightly, the privacy of a small, vulnerable group from exposure or blackmail

LikeDust · 10/11/2018 11:31

If it is universally agreed that Butler's work is hard to understand how did it become so influential?

The same reason people say the Emperor wears clothes... a tale including swindlers, powerful idiots and the majority not wanting to look stupid or unkind.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/11/2018 11:28

I'm not sure if he's performing political theater or if he's serious. Can anyone here read Dutch? It might be more obvious without adding a layer of translation.

LikeDust · 10/11/2018 11:28

I was just thinking about how lovely and clear Janice Turner's writing is and something that is such an amazing antidote to the ridiculous waffle of Butler, is Professor Sheila Jeffreys' 'Unpacking Queer Politics' -so good, clear, extremely well-informed and 100% waffle free. I remember being surprised at how little ego, self-indulgence or pretentiousness there is in her writing. Almost like she actually wants as many people as possible to understand what she is saying and let the facts speak for themselves.

And of course Flowers Janice Turner for doing the same.

Idkwtf · 10/11/2018 11:27

The 69 year old who wants to be 49 that is satire right?
he's not serious?

Idkwtf · 10/11/2018 11:23

I want to self identify as 20 years older
I can claim my pension and not have to work anymore

WarmWishes · 10/11/2018 11:18

I saw a university student's union advertise a 'hate speech workshop' yesterday. A few months ago I would have seen this as helpful and benign. These days I have my concerns that it's a workshop to shut up the opinions you disagree with.

WarmWishes · 10/11/2018 11:13

If it is universally agreed that Butler's work is hard to understand how did it become so influential?

Can anyone explain in simple language what her views on hate speech are? I couldn't make head nor tail based on Wikipedia's account.

AngryAttackKittens · 10/11/2018 11:11

Yep. If reasonably intelligent people consistently struggle to understand your writing then your writing is bad and you should feel bad about that.

Floisme · 10/11/2018 11:00

I cannot understand a word Judith Butler or Foucault ever wrote. I consider this to be their problem, not mine. Janice Turner, on the other hand, is always clear, concise and to the point, even when she's talking about tricky stuff. I know what I think is the greater skill.
Another article that's bang on the money. Thanks for the link and thanks also to you, Janice.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 10/11/2018 10:59

Another great article from Janice. Thank you! Star

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