Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

Also worth stating there is nothing in the Quran that says you must have gender segregation at all

Yet women do face restrictions which prevent not just them but also their children participating fully in society.

Historically arguing over religious doctrine tends to end badly. Helping people to participate and become part of wider society is a more effective way of breaking down barriers.

The vast majority still have Male genitalia

Isn’t that a good thing though? We’ve all been saying that sterilisation isn’t good as years down the line they may change their minds. I think a lot of parents would encourage their children to leave their genitlas alone, doesn’t mean they are not experiencing gender dysphoria, doesn’t mean they don’t hate their genitals either.

My friend never froze his eggs, I said he should at the time but it meant a delay in starting things and he just wanted it all over. I think he regrets not doing that slightly now.

But again, early, nobody is allowed to ask if someone has a GRC, so whether or not they have one is irrelevant in the changing room scenario.

No one has twisted what she has said
Afraid that’s not quite true is it.

datan I think the understanding is quite clear, being post operative is the only ‘proof’ to the eye that you are a ‘genuine’ trans person as opposed to a man just wanting to get in a woman’s space. To me personally, I think holding a GRC is enough to show you are ‘genuine’. Having seen someone close experience gender dysphoria from year 6 or so, I will never be of the opinion that some of you are that they are just a man in a dress/woman in boxers and that is mainly where opinions differ between me and you all on this subject.

There are a lot of people arguing the inclusion angle who seem to have no clue that the vast majority of the group now identifying as transwomen still have fully functional male genitalia, and a substantial percentage have had no medical interventions at all and don't intend to have any. Which makes arguments odd and tedious, like arguing astronomy with someone whose knowledge stopped pre Copernicus.

It is a bit of a mad thread. But for me, is because Early can't logically justify what she's saying.

I understand that some women would accept post op transwomen. I don't understand the justification for that. Never have.

I don't think anyone is saying that Early is mad, bad or stupid. I think people have stated clearly where her thinking is muddled or wrong. No one has twisted what she has said, we are responding to her assumption based on faulty understanding of what self id means and whether or not we have de facto self id in the UK right now. I also see that she is feeling a little bit embattled now at having to answer so many questions posed by various posters, so I'm not going to contribute again to her that and I don't appreciate being patronised, but that's another story

Also worth stating there is nothing in the Quran that says you must have gender segregation at all.

That’s very interesting. It certainly shows proves this is not just about the ‘stonewall trans.’ It is all transpeople.

No it isn't. It's about men. Weather they are trans or not is irrelevant.

It's really not a gotcha. Because even those women who are willing to accept Post op transwomen realise there is no way of telling.

How about you divide everything up into 'men that every possible woman would accept' and all the rest?

Cos that would work.

This is a mad thread

I agree. It is a mad thread. I agree with Earlywalker about alot of things - my main difference is that she doesn’t seem to be aware of any changes to the status quo since 2004.

However, the stuff about Muslims is also a bit mad.

People start talking about floor to ceiling cubicles and open plan and don’t seem to ask WHY that security is needed? If you need to make a cube like Fort Knox, then the whole set up is wrong.

SUCH a good point.

It’s loke that other poster who wasn’t fussed about sleeping alongside a male guide leader at guide camp. She said she would just put on a pair of “sturdy pyjamas”.

Completely dismissing women’s concerns while at the same time recognising them and mitigating them for herself through the use of particular sleepwear.

but we won’t do that and instead will fight to be inclusive of Muslim people’s oppression

Fighting oppression by making it harder for Muslim women to leave the house?

This is a mad thread.

A good proportion of the things Earlywalker is saying are things I see others say regularly here. She's anti self id, wants to see strong gatekeeping of single sex spaces where appropriate but disagrees with some people about what actually needs to be single sex. Hardly a TRA standpoint. Yet the tone of response to her is like she's an enemy invader to be caught out.

Lots of times I've read threads and halfway through I reconsider my opinion having seen others give viewpoints I hadn't considered or share life experiences alien to mine. It is one of the big draws of MN for me.

I am not one for saying women should be nice. I am one for saying if you want debate you won't get it if you take the line that the other participants must be evil or stupid if their starting position is not 100% the same as yours.

easywalker the problem with mixed sex only is that you need to make it so secure it’s not worth doing. People start talking about floor to ceiling cubicles and open plan and don’t seem to ask WHY that security is needed? If you need to make a cube like Fort Knox, then the whole set up is wrong.

Additional mixed sex spaces as well as single sex? I’m fine with that, more family change rooms are grand.

But transwoman in women’s spaces for validation at the expense of safety for women and girls? No.

Our hypothetical Muslim woman in Iran can also decide that the hijab isn't religiously mandated according to her own interpretation of the Koran and hadith, but I don't fancy her chances of getting the authorities to agree that her interpretation trumps theirs.

The key point, however, is that if any women are not OK with cocks in women's spaces then there should be no cocks in women's spaces. If as I suspect the majority of women are opposed to cocks in their spaces then it becomes your job to justify why their wishes should be overruled in favor of the wishes of a much smaller group of people.

I wish you luck with that. You're not doing very well so far.

but UpstartCrow, given that we're all in violent agreement that disabled toilets etc shouldn't be co-opted for this, those mixed sex third spaces tend not to exist at the moment

And as you’re so clued up on Islam, you’ll know that academic scholars make up the group that create rulings within islam.

I’m really baffled by the idea that religious people are told what to believe and then just go ahead and believe it.

Luckily in the UK, we do not abide by sharia law. This is a much deeper issue though, the fact that any group could hold a woman accountable for her own rape/sexual abuse is utterly disgusting and I will not empower those people by using them as a victim in a trans argument. I was heavily involved in helping Muslim woman in the UK escape DA and similar and I think that is a very feminist issue that needs us to stand up against, but we won’t do that and instead will fight to be inclusive of Muslim people’s oppression as it helps to oppress transgender people.

It is all transpeople

it's not all trans people

as far as I'm concerned biological women are welcome in the ladies loo

if they've taken a bunch of hormones and now have male pattern baldness and beard, well they may get challenged. they've taken a decision which will make their life more difficult in some ways and need to live with the consequences

if those women wish to access all male spaces, that is a negotiation they need to have with men

Earlywalker

If you are really arguing for a mixed sex space in addition to the women only space, wheres the problem?
The Muslim women who don't see people with penises as women will be in the women only room. Those who dont see it as a problem van choose to use the mixed sex room.
See how simple that is?

Yes, a Muslim woman can decide that she believes that a trans woman is an actual woman.

And that isn’t really how religion and belief works, hence people being burned at stake because of refusal to recant.

Again melanippe not what I’ve said. Never said any woman should suck it up. Simply stated what was said. And as you’re so clued up on Islam, you’ll know that academic scholars make up the group that create rulings within islam.

So even if the person had no penis you still wouldn’t accept them peeing in the toilet next to you or getting changed in the cubical next to you? That’s very interesting. It certainly shows proves this is not just about the ‘stonewall trans.’ It is all transpeople.

Muslim women should just suck up all those years of being told to have nothing to do with men is over egging the cake a bit.

It's on a par with women abuse too, something to do with them being sentenced less, and the usual ok, what if they've done this, how about that, okay what about this.

A million different, disparate scenarios in order to try and see which one will allow men to squeeze themselves into women's spaces.

Women's Boundaries and A Million Ways to Ignore Them.

Early yes, I understood that's what you were saying. I was stating the facts as they are right now. Yes, a Muslim woman can decide that she believes that a trans woman is an actual woman. However, if something goes wrong with that assumption, which is a real risk now we have de facto self ID in the UK, that same Mulim woman will be held responsible not only for her personal beliefs based on a tiny minority of Islamic thought, but for whatever has gone horribly wrong.

I do hope that's clearer for you.