Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

My friend did not go through years of heartache, lose his whole family and try to kill himself cus he wanted to watch men undress.

Your friend is a female with a serious psychological condition which leads to severe depression. Not an entitled predatory person born and socialised as a male.

And yeah, in theory I could report any sexual assault, but unfortunately that does not then render me not-assaulted, since the police don't carry around the blinky memory wiping thingies from Men In Black.

I do not wish to share a changing room with a post op TW. Sarah Brown, Jane Fae and India Willoughby have had surgery and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near them, let alone take my clothes off in their presence. The knowledge that there are Vile misogynistic post op TW like that, no matter how few, is enough to make me say no.

Same.

How are women supposed to know who is the 'real' trans person with a GRC?

the whole if you get flashed at the police will find the perp and ask to see their GRC thing mean's you've already been flashed at

observe the rule about no men in areas where women are in a state of undress and bingo! you've just dramatically reduced the chances of those women getting flashed at

which is a good thing I would say

I have to say, I have an old friend who is a transman, though we've lost touch. If we were still in touch and I agreed more with gender identity as a concept I think I'd be a lot more invested in their access to the spaces they wanted to be in than that of transwomen, so it really is off that Early is so focused on the scenario that isn't directly to the benefit of their friend.

In answer to Earlywalker’s question, no I do not wish to share a changing room with a post op TW. Sarah Brown, Jane Fae and India Willoughby have had surgery and I wouldn’t want to be anywhere near them, let alone take my clothes off in their presence. The knowledge that there are Vile misogynistic post op TW like that, no matter how few, is enough to make me say no.

So, many women feel uncomfortable, which you have acknowledged. Why should that discomfort not be factored into how situations are handled? Why is the comfort of the trans person more important?

I’ve said my opinion, I think open plan makes many woman uncomfortable, and I definitely think that should be abolished. I think the current GRC guidelines do a good job of distinguishing and should be abided by.

I do not think that preventing a trans person with a GRC certificate from getting changed in a closed cubicle within their desired sex changing rooms is really a threat and that the guidelines as they currently are, do not need to be changed to exclude any and all transgender people.

Which is exactly the policy that trans activists are demanding.

Yes. The endgame is that flashing and voyeurism (forms of sexual abuse) in changing rooms and other intimate female spaces would be rendered non crimes.

Isn’t that a good thing though? We’ve all been saying that sterilisation isn’t good as years down the line they may change their mind

Yes I agree. But the problem remains that while there isn’t any justification for segregation by gender, there is sometimes a need to distinguish biological sex.

I think this is a problem with the original 2004 act - in seeking to help trans people it glosses over a lot. It makes a few exceptions (eg sport), but the logic of the act doesn’t really hold up to close inspection.

Practically it achieved some valid purposes, and as long as it was only used by what you call genuine trans people it was fine. However it doesn’t really make sense.

Your friend was a woman though early and that means they are in the biological group of people that rarely have fetishises they act out in pubic or assault or abuse people for their own ends.

If your friend feels uncomfortable using male spaces why are you making your whole argument about women and women’s spaces? I’m really confused by this, it’s not women stopping your friend feeling welcome in the men’s is it?

I think it’s a bit unfair to come out with the feminists on mumsnet are terrible meanies for repeatedly stating their individual viewpoints when the premise of the argument is that the feminists on mumsnet are terrible meanies, should accept this and either change their tune or stfu.

their ID and records will either state Female (holding a GRC) or Male (Not holding a GRC) so it’s quite easy for them to check really.

No. You're wrong. You don't need a GRC to have "female" ID.

Now you're being deliberately obtuse. If a male human's penis is exposed in a women's changing room, and the standard is that nobody is allowed to ask his gender or if he has a GRC, then he will not and indeed cannot be arrested for flashing. Which is exactly the policy that trans activists are demanding.

If that’s the case then why wouldn’t they just wear a padded bra and tape their penis back like drag acts?

Er, many of them do.

Earlywalker

I didn't say is because they want to watch the opposite sex undress.

I said because they want to get into their space.

Because their identity as the opposite sex isn't based on reality. It can't be. You can't identify as someone with a uterus and ovaries. All you can do is identify how you think someone with uterus and ovaries is. Which is a stereotype.

He won't be taken to court, though, if it's been established in principle that nobody is allowed to ask if he has a GRC or not. Which is what trans activists are pushing for. If nobody is allowed to ask, and a penis is visible, the only option is to assume that he has a GRC, thus rendering the entire process pointless.

If you’ve been assaulted or flashed, you can report this to the police. If the police then visit this person, their ID and records will either state Female (holding a GRC) or Male (Not holding a GRC) so it’s quite easy for them to check really.

So, many women feel uncomfortable, which you have acknowledged. Why should that discomfort not be factored into how situations are handled? Why is the comfort of the trans person more important?

I have said never said woman can’t feel uncomfortable with it - I’ve said the opposite, many many times.

*I can have sympathy for a man with gender dysphoria. But I know it doesn't make him a woman.

What it does make him is someone who believes a woman is a stereotype.*

If that’s the case then why wouldn’t they just wear a padded bra and tape their penis back like drag acts?

I do think that’s offensive, you saying that transwoman are just men wanting to get in a woman’s space. My friend did not go through years of heartache, lose his whole family and try to kill himself cus he wanted to watch men undress. It was utterly heartbreaking and to think that all trans people do it for one reason is naive.

He won't be taken to court, though, if it's been established in principle that nobody is allowed to ask if he has a GRC or not. Which is what trans activists are pushing for. If nobody is allowed to ask, and a penis is visible, the only option is to assume that he has a GRC, thus rendering the entire process pointless.

datan I think the understanding is quite clear, being post operative is the only ‘proof’ to the eye that you are a ‘genuine’ trans person as opposed to a man just wanting to get in a woman’s space.

But that's exactly what they are! A man who really, really wants to get into a woman's space.

The only difference, is the motivation. And you having empathy for it, or not.

I can have sympathy for a man with gender dysphoria. But I know it doesn't make him a woman.

What it does make him is someone who believes a woman is a stereotype.

Same sort of people sorry, not the exact same people!

You see the contradiction in going "well what if they don't have a penis" and then shifting straight over to "but actually it would be better if they did", right? I agree that not seeing a penis makes the situation potentially less alarming. I don't agree that it removes the sense of threat completely, given that the natal sex will still generally be obvious. I definitely don't see why you think that your feeling that you wouldn't mind finding yourself in either situation means that other women aren't allowed to feel differently, or why their feelings should matter less than yours.

Yet women do face restrictions which prevent not just them but also their children participating fully in society.

Agree, these were not spoken by the Quran though but by the same people who made the transgender statements... but apparently people don’t listen to them or follow them so I guess Muslim woman being forced into oppression is made up too!

But the point is that under current law you need a GRC to be classed as that sex. A man can argue he is transgender but if is taken to court for flashing in a female space and is still classed as a man he has broken the law unless it’s a mixed sex facility.

Currently there is no law to prevent a man who doesn’t identify as transgender from peeing in your toilets either if there? I might be wrong there but I don’t think it’s actually classed as an offense.