Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

Earlywalker, you are transphobic for assuming that transwomen do not have penises (penii?), most do. They are known as a female penis, a girl dick or a lady stick.

Its interesting how people can't hear the voices of women.

Ok so by this logic, you think trans men should be in our rape centres?

Yes if the rape centre is for people whose sex is female. I don’t believe you can change sex so I would include trans men in any service for people whose sex is female.

There is also no need for all rape centres to be women only.

transwoman in a dress with a vagina that looks like a woman, or a transmen with a beard and a penis?

1). While no transwomen have vaginas, many of them have penises.

2). Trans men do not have functioning penises.

3). What is the relevance of the dress?

If your argument is that trans women without a penis should be able to share more women’s spaces than those with, I’m sure many people on this board would agree with you.

earlywalker I share your view that not everything needs to be segregated. However, we can only choose what to segregate or not if we recognise the boundaries along which we would segregate.

To do so we must start with transwomen are not women, they are men who choose to present as women for assorted reasons.

From there we can consider whether and in what circumstances women only spaces would benefit from admitting transwomen.

You can't have that debate if one side is saying transwomen are women.

Ok so by this logic, you think trans men should be in our rape centres? Do you think a woman in a rape crisis centre would rather see a transwoman in a dress with a vagina that looks like a woman, or a transmen with a beard and a penis?

If a transwoman is raped tomorrow, she’s going to feel the same way a woman does when she’s raped, violated and terrified and the thought of her not having somewhere to go is upsetting

Well thats the case for a man as well surely

I’m a feminist, and I support trans rights and hate the constant berating of them on here.

What trans rights do you support, that you assume the rest of us are opposed to?

Do you also hate it when women complain about some men being utter wankers and manbabies?

The reason I ask, is that internalized male supremacy is a thing, it's unfortunately quite popular. People suffering from internalized male supremacy usually get very irate when anyone disrespects, shames, and slanders their precious.

As opposed to a healthy person who can objectively identify which class of people is oppressing a different class of people while coercing everyone to pretend that the subjugation is mutual. A healthy person can deal with the fact that the oppressing group actually does deserve some amount of criticism. Particularly when and until they actually stop perpetuating such extreme harm.

And if you think trans constant and unrelenting agenda to force dicks into the women's showers AND eliminate all our sex-based discrimination protections, if you think all that is so no big deal that we're a bunch of hysterical ninnies for getting upset, then you have more internalized male supremacy than I personally can help you with (tho I would if I knew how).

Maybe this is something that radfems need to ponder...? How to help people reconcile their internalized male supremacy...?

Thought experiment:
If we lock up all men in their houses after 9pm, do we lock up transwomen too?
If not, what is to stop men from identifying as transwomen to walk the streets at night?

Do you think that it would be likely that great swathes of men would be identifying as women, just so they could go to the offie or whatever?

How do we police this?

Would Phillip Bunce be allowed to go to the offie after 9pm if he was in a suit and tie?

And yes to what someone said upthread (sorry I've forgotten who), if any bloke with blue hair can identify as trans, surely that endangers transwomen as much as it does women.

Early If a transwoman is raped tomorrow, she’s going to feel the same way a woman does when she’s raped, violated and terrified and the thought of her not having somewhere to go is upsetting. A private room within a traditional centre wouldn’t be the worse thing

The thing is, we are talking about centres that are for females. They are not for males with or without gender dysphoria. The female only status is granted because it is considered a proportionate means to achieve a legitimate aim.

Having worked in a support role with many trans people, I can completely understand that many would find using services for their natal sex distressing - which is the last thing that is needed when in need of rape support. The solution, however, is not to remove the single sex status of the refuges by allowing males in.

Why not? Why aren't there rape crisis centres for trans people?

Because the people who have the resources to set them up (Stonewall and co) are too busy demanding the use of services women organised for themselves.

Earlywalker There is certainly an argument to be had about unnecessary sex discrimination and segregation. That is a very large part of feminism.

However, that is not what is being proposed by many supporters of self ID. They want segregation along gender lines - and without any other objective definition of gender, gender means binary social constructs - and no recognition of the physical consequences of being born male or female.

Can you not see why that is regressive?

As somebody born in the U.K. I’m not being excluded from funding from a refugee charity because they aren’t intersectional, I’m being excluded because I don’t meet the criteria of the charity.

That doesn’t make it impossible for me to receive any kind of charitable support.

However there is nowhere else for them to go right now.

Why not? Why aren't there rape crisis centres for trans people?

What makes them so different from transwomen that they too should not be included?

Yes

transwomen are men

why exclude some men from rape crisis centres and let some in?

why do we exclude men at all from such environments? why should the root cause of that exclusion not apply to some men?

This is the problem Earlywalker and I'm not sure if you see it but don't care, or just don't see it.

No-one wants to deny men treatment, trans or otherwise. And transactivists pretending they do is a tactic. They aren't really interested in providing a service for transwomen. They are only interested in targeting services for women.

Their narratives just don't hold up. They would rather see a refuge shut down than be female only.

TRAs are targeting anything with the word woman in it as being exclusionary, (including lesbianism, ffs.)

The equality act acknowledges rape refuges specifically as somewhere where sex segregation is reasonable.

It's a red flag to TRAs.

Once you've seen a TRA claim being a rape counsellor should be a right for a transwoman. That the purpose of a victim of male violence is to validate a man, you can't unsee it.

It's not as black and white as it appears.

You know what Earlywalker, one of the real heartbreaking things about this debate is this: it is being buoyed at it's core by a disagreement between good hearted, emphathetic women who want nothing more than to help those they see as less fortunate then themselves - to protect the vulnerable from predators.

For many of us, we haven't personally experienced either the pain of dysphoria or of being in an abusive relationship or assault perpetrated against us. And yet we have this powerful empathy that drives us. We see trans women say they will die if they cannot transition. That they feel they have no where to go if they experience male violence. At the same time we see vulnerable abused women who say that they cannot leave an abuser, or they would rather be homeless when they know that going to a shelter means they will end up being forced to share a room with a male bodied person. Some also say they are likely to die instead. Women that would like to enjoy a public life, but cannot be naked in the presence of a male, so will stay home instead.

Many of us would be absolutely on board with helping transgender advocacy groups build shelters to help serve trans women and other males who have suffered from male violence. This would be the best of both worlds as we could help all of those who are abused instead of inevitably failing to serve one or the other. Advocacy groups like Stonewall have plenty of money. There is plenty of political will. And yet - that is not what the groups are doing with their time and money. Instead, transgender advocacy groups are suing women's shelters and the women's groups that support them. Trying to run women-only services out of business. Attacking them. Literally, in some cases. Why are these the demands that are being made?? Why not put those substantial resources towards specialist services instead, ensuring the safety of all involved? It's hard for me to comprehend.

There is no point getting involved though. I’m just a woman hater - obviously.

About rape centres; I understand the concern completely. However there is nowhere else for them to go right now. For anyone who’s been to a rape crisis centre will know that when you go there for your counselling sessions you don’t tend to see another person and go straight in to your private room. By saying I’ve lived a sheltered life by not realising a rapist would pretend to be a woman to follow someone in here again I don’t understand, at a rape crisis centre no one can follow you to your sessions unless they wait outside (which you don’t need a dress to do) and men aren’t generally in the business of dressing up as a woman solely to attack woman, they tend to just to do it looking like a man in the street or whatever. You’d be far safer banning men being allowed out of their houses after 9pm, that’s where the real threat is.

If a transwoman is raped tomorrow, she’s going to feel the same way a woman does when she’s raped, violated and terrified and the thought of her not having somewhere to go is upsetting. A private room within a traditional centre wouldn’t be the worse thing.

But that’s where opinions differ I guess, I don’t think everything needs to be segregated.

Come on, EarlyWalker, you've put a case here, and I genuinely welcome the attempt. Please think about what's been put to you. Your desire to do good is right, of course it is, we all share it.

But there are issues which need careful thought because of the consequences of certain courses. Wisdom is as useful as kindness to society.

For anyone in any doubt what female spaces 'being inclusive' looks like read this thread tells you.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3416047-The-overwhelming-majority-of-women-who-work-in-rape-crisis-centres-apparently-have-no-problem-with-male-bodies-in-female-spaces

and that my friend, is feminism

Absolutely 🍷

Feminism is not putting your own feelings and needs and those of other women second and putting males first. That's sexism.

So ewrlywaler, you want any person who has been raped to have the proper help and support. Great. With you there.

It’s just , as a woman who has experienced rape, I do not believe that treating transpeople in the same location is really a good idea. The sight, smell, size, sound of a male person during the recovery phase will cause harm to the women. It’s just a sad fact. Trans and women need sepate facilities.

Further, as my dh pointed out, what is to stop a man pretending to be a woman to follow his victim? I appreciate that if you have had a sheltered life it may be hard to see that many men would do this, unfortunatly, it is true.

Think after all how many men have already signed up for life in a dress just to enable the, to harm women...the catholic priests for example.

Note I have not said that a single transperson would ever harm a woman intentionally.

i went to a trans event this week. there were a number of trans women there. I read each and every one of them as male. they were all much bigger and stronger than me.

and that's one of the points. I don't want to be vulnerable in front of strange males. This is for my safety, but also my privacy and dignity. And that's OK.

to be crude, it's quite reasonable for me not to want to take a shit in a cubicle that's open at the top and bottom with a strange man in the next one.

And yes if they feel uncomfortable in the gents that leaves them with a problem of which toilet to use.

but do you know what? that's not my problem

making sure every random man on the planet feels comfortable at the expense of my privacy and dignity is not my job

and that my friend, is feminism

And if it's just 'anyone who's suffering' surely that's not a definition of 'feminism'?