Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

transwoman offend at the same rate as men’ needs to be completely disregarded for any data collected post 1985.

No, not data collected after. Analysis was done on mixed data.

Sorry, I can't see that early.

If it's the part of the study that shows the date range, my understanding is that the actual analysis was not done in two parts, with the date range being separate. They were mixed up together. With one of the date ranges including women.

I'm not a statistician, but a statistician has analysed it.

I simply don't believe that men with gender dysphoria have female pattern behaviour. Even through my own personal experience, just today, with a TW displaying male pattern behaviour. It's like talking to the most arrogant, sexiest bloke imaginable.

I can probably find more you criminal transactivists, than I can sex offending women in prison.

Interested to know what part of putting on lippy and a dress makes men magically become less likely to commit violent crime.
If we can find out what exactly happens here we could make our fortunes!

Right so we’re now moving the goalposts and saying the study, which you all base your ‘transwoman offend at the same rate as men’ needs to be completely disregarded for any data collected post 1985. Which was when trans people started to receive better mental health provisions.

So you’re basing your findings on a study that observed people transitioning over 30 years ago?

Screenshot attached here datun

It really fucking pisses me off that women have to keep reinventing the wheel and stating the obvious.

Transcrime UK. Terfaslur. This never happens.

There is absolutely zero evidence to show that identifying as women gives you female pattern behaviour. And overwhelming evidence to suggest the opposite.

How many transwomen we do we have to show you who are perverts, rapists, murderers, and paedophiles?

Seriously, no one wants to have to do this.

It's like claiming blue eyed men don't commit crime. And we have to dig up every blue eyed man who has. Thereby making blue eyed people look weird.

Transwomen are MEN. You either accept that men commit more violent crimes than women, or you don't.

If you think transwomen are different, you have to explain WHY.

Oh dear, as you can see, no one's chips have been pissed on here. Except yours Early.

Unfortunately, false statistics don’t help anyone. And given it’s one that’s often trotted out on here, I’d have thought you’d all looked into it more. Took me 5 mins on google to find this.

The two cohorts were analysed at the same time. Not one after the other. You are misinterpreting the study. As has every other transactivist

The second cohort included women, who identify as men. That's why you can't deduce anything from that side of the study.

The only part of the study that compared to men with men is the one that showed male pattern criminality.

So of the 70 inmates who said they were transgender in prison in 2016, 52 reported their gender as Male, 14 as female and 4 did not say. Strange isn’t it that fair play for woman haven’t mentioned this when waving about the statistics confused

I've no idea what you mean about this. There are no tranmen in men's prisons.

The prisoners you are talking about all I identify as women.

The Ministry of Justice have confirmed fair play for women's analysis. In fact Fairplay under estimated the figures. Deliberately.

The Independent newspaper have also apologised to Fairplay for women for fox Fisher's claims they were wrong.

i'm truly baffled by which part of

how do you tell if someone is 'proper' trans

you don't understand Earlywalker

frankly most transwomen look like adult human males to me. so if it's fine for them to come into women's loos, how do you know which people to challenge? I think you agreed upthread that men as a class pose a threat to women as a class?

That report says that the majority of trans prisoners are housed in prisons according to their gender.

Since there are no transmen in men’s prison how does this accord with 52% of transprisoners identifying as ‘male’?

About the Swedish study;
www.reddit.com/r/science/comments/6q3e8v/science_ama_series_im_cecilia_dhejne_a_fellow_of/

In her own words, not filtered by the TRA interviewer, the author of the Swedish study says;

For combined transgender females and males and for the whole period 1973-2003 we saw an increased risk of being dead ( in suicide and cardio vascular diseases) and of being hospitalized for any psychiatric morbidity and for suicide attempts. We saw a positive time trend regarding mortality, suicide attempts and any crime and violent crime. For the last period (1989-2003) the transgender group did not have any elevated risk of being dead or being hospitalized for suicide attempts or committing any crime or violent crime. They had the same risk as the controls. However the elevated risk for being hospitalized for psychiatric morbidity still remained. The elevated risk in the transgender group could be caused of many things which we were unable to control for.

Increased trend in crime and violent crime before 1989 and afterwards the same risk as the controls. The control groups were the birth sex group.

Later in the AMA the TRA asks her what “male pattern of criminality” means. In her response she says:

The number of transwomen who had comited crime durin gthis period was 32, and the number who had comitted violent crime were 14. Most likely some of the 32 transwomen who had comitted a any crime had also comitted a violent crime sop you can not add the numbers. Having a male pattern means that they did not differ regarding any crime or violent crime if compared with cis men.

The TRA did not ask a follow up question, I suspect realising it was time to stop digging.

As far as I can tell, the senior authors of the paper have not made any further comment on the results or their interpretation.

At the very least, the study shows that further study is warranted. We're often told that "genuine trans" TIMs are no threat to women. If there was a definition of "genuine trans" it is likely to be the participants in this study who have had treatment for dysphoria and undergone legal transition with genital surgery. We are expected to assume "genuine trans" are no threat to women but data can be collected on the criminality rates and patterns of TIMs and I think women are entitled to have that evidence assessed publicly.

Safeguarding works by having single sex spaces.
Anyone who is trying to remove single sex spaces from women is undermining safeguarding.

Correct me if I’m wrong but I’m sure this is incorrect. I didn’t want to piss on anyone’s chips but I’ve looked into it :

transwoman retain male patterns and rates of violence even after transition

So I’m not here to tell you transwoman are saints. But this may be useful - assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/567053/prisoner-transgender-statistics-march-april-2016.pdf

So of the 70 inmates who said they were transgender in prison in 2016, 52 reported their gender as Male, 14 as female and 4 did not say. Strange isn’t it that fair play for woman haven’t mentioned this when waving about the statistics

The Swedish study I presume you’re refering to is based on a case study in the period of 1973-1988. The author of the study herself said this:

The study as a whole covers the period between 1973 and 2003. If one divides the cohort into two groups, 1973 to 1988 and 1989 to 2003, one observes that for the latter group (1989 – 2003), differences in mortality, suicide attempts, and crime disappear. This means that for the 1989 to 2003 group, we did not find a male pattern of criminality. The difference we observed between the 1989 to 2003 cohort and the control group is that the trans cohort group accessed more mental health care, which is appropriate given the level of ongoing discrimination the group faces.

The study itself, if you click on ‘results’ on the article says this - Transsexual individuals were at increased risk of being convicted for any crime or violent crime after sex reassignment (Table 2); this was, however, only significant in the group who underwent sex reassignment before 1989.

This is the table within the article which also proves this.- journals.plos.org/plosone/article/figure?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885.t002

Unfortunately, false statistics don’t help anyone. And given it’s one that’s often trotted out on here, I’d have thought you’d all looked into it more. Took me 5 mins on google to find this.

But earlywalker this isn't just my opinion.

The following are facts - backed up by data.

-Men as a class are a danger to women
-transwomen retain male patterns and rates of violence even after transition

• humans cannot change sex
• every aid and development agency in earth presses for single sex sanitary facilities as a means of protecting women.

These are not my opinions. They are facts. Arguing opinion is different. Opinion has two sides (or more) and where things are a matter of opinion they’re subjective.

When one side offers feelings and another offers facts then it’s not an equal debate. It’s not opinion. It’s denial of reality.

Bowl how you feel and want you want can never be unreasonable, youre entitled to your feelings and opinions and they’re just as valid as anyone else’s.
Some do not see transwoman as simply men and therefore do not see them being in our spaces the same as woman being forced to share with men. I’m not saying what I think and feel is superior to you either, but I’ve already stated my views so I won’t bother boring you all again with them!

What’s the key reason you would not want be in the same toilet as a trans person?

Their being trans isn’t the issue.
If they are Male, I do not want to share a toilet with them.

Am I unreasonable to not want to have men in a space where I’m vulnerable? I don’t think I am.

Why Should I be ok with it?

langcleng thanks for your calm and rational post

Sarcasm!!!

I did wonder

langcleng thanks for your calm and rational post. I just have a few questions for you. As I’m a bit sick of the uncalled for nastiness that certain posters seem to seem acceptable.
1- Please inform me how I’m throwing trans people to the wolves?
2- where have I ignored undermining of frameworks?
3- where have I said mothers should not be concerned?
4- you say I’m sat here spouting such bollocks, are you usually so dismissive of opinions that differ from yours?
5- you say I should do something else rather than comment here - do you believe that only some woman’s voices have the right to be heard here?

I’m not saying the issues are not important, I was saying that given the NSPCC deal with issues of child abuse, and were in a country with rising numbers of online abusers, grooming gangs and obviously neglect and pysical abuse are so prominent - when I went onto the chat, I was surprised that a forum filled with mothers only wanted to discuss transgenderism which is very minor in the scheme of things (although equally valid concerns) I will admit that I was disappointed about that.

Then you need to start thinking.

Where NSPCC are doing work to cover child safeguarding, why would mothers argue with it?

Where NSPCC is both contradicting and undermining its own work in child safeguarding, why wouldn't mothers argue with it?

And when NSPCC runs away rather than address clear conflicts and clear holes in the safeguarding it recommends to institutions, why wouldn't mothers argue with it?

You can ignore the undermining of safeguarding frameworks if you like. But coming around here and remonstrating with us for not ignoring this clear danger to children - including gender-questioning children - is just fucking incredible.

Rather than spending all this time here spouting such bollocks, why don't you actually inform yourself and work to persuade organisations to properly protect the next generation of children like your friend? Because it's you throwing them to the wolves, not us.

his hair was already short, he already wore men’s clothes, he already played on a football team that he still does (didn’t say he was trans just asked to join)

You say you aren’t talking about stereotypes, but I don’t understand which bits of this have anything to do with sex or gender.

I obviously don’t speak for all trans people by any means and can only speak of my friends experience. He felt like his body was wrong, his vagina depressed him and he would cut it over and over again. When he started having periods, it was emotionally killing him. He said it never felt right, he used to borrow his mums sports bra that was way to small to try and bind his breasts down, in sports lessons he always wore a vest and shorts under his trousers - you could tell he wasn’t comfortable in his own skin,

Early is there even the smallest part of you that reads what you have written and thinks this might about expectations, or a psychological disassociation with one's body?

That 'really being male' isn't actually it?

And, additionally, do you see the difference between your friend opting out of womanhood, and a man opting in.

And can you understand that the power dynamic makes it different?

I have the deepest sympathy for your friend. Born in the wrong body, they're not.

Dealing with their issues by presenting as the opposite sex, is understandable.

Did you know that Stephanie Davis Arai has said she has yet to see a girl transition who wasn't either autistic, a lesbian or had suffered from some kind of sexual trauma. Or a combination. Does that mean anything to you?

Early it’s great that your friend has found a happier way to live.

It’s great that Muslim women can swim at female only swim sessions.

I can support measures to promote inclusion without believing that Muslim women need to be segregated or that your friend is male.

The problem would be if I were only able to attend segregated swimming sessions (not happening) or if there were a political movement forcing me to agree that your friend is male (happening).

No I did not say it’s not important, of course I don’t support transitioning a 5 year old. My 5 year old ate mud yesterday. Equally I do not think anything should be kept from the guardians under 16 unless safety is concerned.

I’m not saying the issues are not important, I was saying that given the NSPCC deal with issues of child abuse, and were in a country with rising numbers of online abusers, grooming gangs and obviously neglect and pysical abuse are so prominent - when I went onto the chat, I was surprised that a forum filled with mothers only wanted to discuss transgenderism which is very minor in the scheme of things (although equally valid concerns) I will admit that I was disappointed about that. As an early teenager I was doing things I shouldn’t be, looking back my guardians did fail to keep me safe - I was interested in how to prevent the same happening to my own daughter.

I didn’t contribute to that thread, I wanted to but I did feel like my questions wouldn’t matter as it was clear the route it was taking. Maybe that was my biological conditioning, to just stay silent as your voice won’t be heard over the people shouting.

What else can it possibly be, other than a stereotype? They can't actually become a physical woman. So what's left?

I obviously don’t speak for all trans people by any means and can only speak of my friends experience. He felt like his body was wrong, his vagina depressed him and he would cut it over and over again. When he started having periods, it was emotionally killing him. He said it never felt right, he used to borrow his mums sports bra that was way to small to try and bind his breasts down, in sports lessons he always wore a vest and shorts under his trousers - you could tell he wasn’t comfortable in his own skin, his hair was already short, he already wore men’s clothes, he already played on a football team that he still does (didn’t say he was trans just asked to join) to the outside eye all that changed was his stubble. This wasnt about appearance but about him and how he felt. You’re right that how can one ‘feel like a Male’ or female but he always said that all he knew was he wasn’t a woman and he was felt like his body did not match him. He lived with this all for many years, attempting to take his life as his father didn’t accept it. Once he started taking hormones and grew facial hair he was visibly so much happier - no more hiding himself away, he wasn’t completely happy until he said full surgery though.

And these issues aren’t easy. Everything seemed so straightforward in the 80’s - ‘awful’ Victoria Gillick not respecting her child’s autonomy.

But back then all children were safe as long as they knew about ‘stranger danger’. It’s more complicated now.

What’s the key reason you would not want be in the same toilet as a trans person?

Early, personally, I would not mind. But I am also the kind of person who had a laughing fit when it turned out someone had put a camera into one stall at our uni, because I imagined what type of a pathetic guy would do that.

I do, however, feel quite alarmed about the possibility that someone like transwoman Jonathan Yaniv would make good on her phantasies - shared in a chatroom for women and girls - to bond in the bathroom with ten year olds about the tampons the kid uses, asking them to have the kid's tampon (to bond over menstruation) and asking the 10 year old whether to help her insert the tampon.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/2018/11/08/cant-take-no-for-an-answer-jonathan-yaniv-files-16-human-rights-complaints-against-women-who-dont-want-to-wax-his-balls/

With telling girls that TWAW, some might be too flabbergasted to resist if someone like Yaniv tries to 'bond with them on the toilet' as he envisions.

Anyway, it is great that you brought up this brilliant idea that we just need to explain to all those organizations, what the risks of self-ID are. Clearly, nobody ever thought about that and we've just been bitching about those institutions instead on mumsnet, because that is what silly mums, who do not know how the world works, do.