Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

I commend you women for the patience I really do not have.

The survey only counts prisoners who have already had a case conference - a meeting of senior managers and other officials - to decide how to manage the trans person within the prison estate.

Don't they all get a case conference within three days of being in prison?

that transmen (sic) continue to rape and murder at the same rate as men.

Why wouldn't you believe this? It's dangerously naive and blinkered.

That involves a total of 5000 people in this country. Half of whom will be women. If you can restrict toilet use to them, knock yourself out.

Exactly.

From the BBC Reality Check:

"The MoJ can't count inmates who have not told prison staff they are transgender.

Nor does it count prisoners who have already been given a Gender Recognition Certificate (GRC).

About 250-350 GRCs are issued each year across the UK - 4,910 since 2005.

The survey only counts prisoners who have already had a case conference - a meeting of senior managers and other officials - to decide how to manage the trans person within the prison estate.

These are likely to be prisoners serving longer sentences."

I think those figures were confirmed by the MOJ, were they not?

I totally agree Prawn. I just think people need to be careful in their use of statistics like this and that they should not necessarily be taken at face value.

I'm sure the high number of transwomen in prison for sex and violent crimes is down to a number of factors, whatsthecomingoverthehill.

However none of the potential factors support claims that male prisoners who say they identify as women should be moved to women's prisons.

I think there are elements of how the data is collected (if at all) that might lead to it being a bit of an overestimate. Sex offenders are more likely to be in for longer terms, and from what I understand the process for people wanting to go to a different sex prison takes time so it is likely to be those who are in for longer periods who apply to move. (Sorry, realise that's a bit wordy). Sex offenders do still appear to make up a high proportion of trans inmates. But we need to be careful on how statistics are assessed and what the data actually means.

People have estimated that less than 1% of the population is trans and yet 65 of the transwomen in prison are there for sex offences. Out of the 50% of the population that is female only about 120 are in prison for sex offences.

Very damning indeed.

I'm also confused about what your argument actually is Earlywalker There are only approx 5000 people in the whole of the UK with a GRC so if that is your criteria for letting them in the loos, you are highly unlikely to ever come across someone who has one anyway.

If that's not your criteria, then at what point would you allow a transwoman into a female space? You have said you are against self ID?

I disagree with the narrative that

1- all things need to be segregated based on sex.

Very few things are segregated by sex. Typically only situations where people are naked or otherwise vulnerable and mixing the sexes would not be in the interests of privacy, dignity and (particularly for women) safety.

Do you think sex segregation should be abandoned and, if so, why?

Your points 2 and 3 suggest you don't know that well under 5,000 people currently hold a GRC.

When it comes to your 4th point I assume you meant to write transwomen as no one has ever claimed that transmen commit crimes at the same rate as men.

There is plenty of evidence that men who identify as women commit male pattern sex and violent crimes.

See the statistics and methodology of the work Fair Play for Women have done here.

FPFW writes:

Our findings gave the UK, for the first time ever, a countrywide snapshot of the demographic of transgender offenders. Our conclusions should be taken very seriously indeed. We found that half of the transgender prisoners are housed in sex offender institutions or max security prisons. These are the prisoners who could become eligible for transfer to women’s prisons under a regime of sex self-ID.

Transwomen are more likely to be murderers than victims in the UK.

People have estimated that less than 1% of the population is trans and yet 65 of the transwomen in prison are there for sex offences. Out of the 50% of the population that is female only about 120 are in prison for sex offences.

Yes I disagree with the narrative that

1- all things need to be segregated based on sex.

All things? Sport, prisons, changing rooms, rape refugees, all women shortlists and toilets (although some people don't mind toilets).

2- allowing transpeople with a GRC to use toilets of their desired sex is an issue.

That involves a total of 5000 people in this country. Half of whom will be women. If you can restrict toilet use to them, knock yourself out.

But you can't. It's illegal to ask to see a GRC. So it's a pointless point.

3- allowing transpeople with a GRC in said spaces will mean Muslim woman have to stay locked in their houses.

Unless you ask all those Muslim women, you can't answer that question.

4- that transmen continue to rape and murder at the same rate as men.

(I'm assuming you mean transwomen). How can you disagree with that? Nearly half of the transwomen in prison are there for sex offences. Way more than the general prison population. Confirmed by the Ministry of Justice.

If you are stuck on that point, because you don't want to believe it, I suggest you check it out.

As for the women's groups. WPUK and Fairplay for Women are very moderate! WPUK simply want to uphold the existing law, and strengthen exemptions. Fair play don't have a list of demands. But prisons is a special interest for Nic Williams.

The reason why these discussions happen here is because the credibility of transactivists, who advise government and all these associations, including schools, is on the floor. They have proven themselves to be serving an agenda that is deliberately dangerous to women.

Of the people who advised the original transgender equalities committee, you have transwomen who have compaigned for decades to legalise extreme pornography (where the viewer is in serious doubt as to whether the injuries are genuine), and to lower the age of the participants. You have
a transwoman who is being investigated for indecent exposure, you have an organisation whose manifesto claims all trans prisoners should be released immediately and other nutty demands.

Women here aren't interested in undermining transsexuals who have gender dysphoria. They are, I have to say, fairly irrelevant.

They are interested in stopping a male sexual rights movement from undoing decades worth of women's rights legislation.

why I don’t believe all trans people are dangerous to woman

Has anyone claimed that they all are?

These are WPUK's 5 demands:

1. Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of the proposed changes to the Gender Recognition Act to be allowed to take place and for women’s voices to be heard.

2. The principle of women-only spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended. 3. A review of how the exemptions in the Equality Act (which allow for single sex services, or requirements that only a woman can apply for a job such as in a domestic violence refuge) are being applied in practice. 4. Government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces. 5. Government to consult on how self-declaration will impact upon data gathering – such as crime, employment, pay and health statistics – and monitoring of sex-based discrimination such as the gender pay gap.

which ones do you disagree with?

Yes I disagree with the narrative that

1- all things need to be segregated based on sex.

Nobody is arguing for all things to be segregated by sex. Just the things that already are, for good reasons.

2- allowing transpeople with a GRC to use toilets of their desired sex is an issue.

You're the one fixating on toilets as though that's the heart of this. Many of the regulars here think they are a wedge issue and that female spaces remain important. Those with a GRC can use the toilets of their 'desired sex' but the proposed Self ID would make that completely moot.

3- allowing transpeople with a GRC in said spaces will mean Muslim woman have to stay locked in their houses.

Seriously? You just will not accept anyone telling you that some women need women-only spaces to participate fully in society, will you?

4- that transmen continue to rape and murder at the same rate as men.

I am guessing you mean 'transwomen' not transmen here.

yet everyone here seems keen to support those hindered by religion
Yep. Thats how womens liberation works.

but demonise transgender people.
Nope. No one is demonising trans people. Just stop it with the lies and the obfuscating and the faux naif.

Earlywalker Thu 08-Nov-18 21:18:48
I don’t understand your question anyway. There are huge issues surrounding Self ID but that is not currently law.
Transgender people acquire the protected characteristic as soon as they announce they have begun the 'process' of becoming transgender.

Karen white abused people in prisons, that needs to be addressed and provented and has had a lot of coverage so hopefully more steps will be put in place to prevent it happening again. Afaik no woman has been assaulted in a female space in the UK by a transwoman.

As soon as theres an assault, you cry 'no true trans' but you refuse to explain how safeguarding can prevent male predators abusing the system.
Karen White is a trans woman. Karen White repeatedly raped a woman on a psychiatric ward. Karen White then went on to sexually assault 4 women across the space of 3 months in prison.
Stop complaining about women who stand up for harmed and oppressed women.

Its clear that either you dont understand what you are supporting, or you do and you are being deliberately obtuse.

I’ve not told anyone to be nice. I’ve explained why I’m a transinclusive feminist and why I don’t believe all trans people are dangerous to woman. I’ve stated my point of view, I’ve responded to your questions, I’ve shared sources and facts and I’ve not once told you how to behave.

I have told people to stop twisting my words as it’s incredibly frustrating. It’s also clear some people read one or two lines and then stop reading.

I believe self ID is damaging as you don’t need a doctors certificate or to be (as sure as you can be) that you want to live as your new sex, it will stop those that are just gay and having a bit of a crisis, those wanting special treatment and those predators from one day deciding they are a woman, I believe the current GRC guidelines are adequate.

What is not Adaquate is the orgqnisations that do not follow these guidelines.

The issue is people who are not ‘genuine trans’

"No true Scotsman..."

Can't you see that this is a bit like giving Arlene Foster religious advice from the Pope?

Or that different countries have different laws? For example, Egypt 's law are based both on the Qur'an and Napoleonic Code, which Saudi Arabia's derive from the Qur'an.

yet everyone here seems keen to support those hindered by religion but demonise transgender people.

I don't have to agree with either group to want them to be able to participate in society.

The difference is that nobody is forcing me to wear a headscarf. It's becoming increasingly difficult to question the ideology that sex doesn't exist and that everybody has a gender identity.

But Earlywalker that is exactly what FPFW and all the other womens’ orgs have been doing. Haven you even looked at any of their web sights?

Please can you explain why you’re against self ID?

I really don't get the basis of your arguments, Earlywalker. When I re-read your posts the impression I get is that you just want women to be nice, without ever acknowledging that the TRAs and their misogynist, homophobic ideology are far from nice to women.

It might be educational if you spent time on one of the male or trans dominated forums and tried telling them they should be nice.

This next bit isn't aimed at you. It's just an observation. I have frequently noticed that libfems don't have an underlying basis for their political positions. That's why so many of their statements kinda crumple under pressure.

I see silly statements saying feminism is for everyone and should centre men.

Reminds me of the definition of woman. TRAs and their allies can't define the word. Likewise with feminism. If you can't define it are you actually a feminist?

I say this as someone who only found out I was a radical feminist in the last few years. Radical feminism, with its intellectual underpinnings, was the only type of feminism that existed in my teens.

it is just extremists pushing for full inclusivity.

It's not really about inclusivity though is it?. If I want my daughter to have the opportunity to play rugby at the local rugby club which is currently all male, I can do that while still recognising that she is not a boy.

We could talk about increased toilet provision and still recognise that different groups of people use toilets differently.

legislation can make life easier for trans people without agreeing that anyone can change sex.

It's about endorsing the idea that 'TWAW'.

Yes I disagree with the narrative that

1- all things need to be segregated based on sex.

2- allowing transpeople with a GRC to use toilets of their desired sex is an issue.

3- allowing transpeople with a GRC in said spaces will mean Muslim woman have to stay locked in their houses.

4- that transmen continue to rape and murder at the same rate as men.

The issue is people who are not ‘genuine trans’ the issue is not trans people, yet the arguments on these board are against the whole ‘tran narrative’ which excludes trans people.

I think if the whole ‘fair play for woman’ and similar campaigns were based around keeping GRC rules the same and ensuring only those holding a certifate could use facilities, there would be a lot more support but it has turned into a ‘no trans people in our toilets ever’ type debate and has painted trans people to be dangerous criminals.

Religion kills and oppresses far more woman than trans people ever have... yet everyone here seems keen to support those hindered by religion but demonise transgender people. If it is solely just about woman, would you all be happy to have a fully transitioned (i.e no penis) trans in our toilets?