Great blog about being a trans inclusive feminist

The suggestion is not that we segregate according to orientation, it is that we continue to have Sex segregated spaces. I don't care if the male bodied person in question is attracted to men, women or Porsches, the reason he is not supposed to be there is because he has a male body. No need to check for sexuality, motive, gender feelings etc.

Have a male body? You don't belong in the places exclysively for female bodies.

It's exactly as complicated as that.

Which was exactly my point, that we dont/wouldn’t segregate based on orientation - not that we would/should. If people actually read in context. Someone being a transwoman doesn’t mean that they are ogling you, just because they were born male and attracted to woman.

I’m also yet to find a changing room that isn’t either fully individual cubicals or open plan with private changing rooms available within it. So no one is forcing you to undress in front of a man.

it is also well documented that woman are less likely to get convicted or sentenced for a shorter time than men for the same crimes.

Can you link to that?

I said someone who fancies woman will have more interest in a woman’s body than someone who is attracted to men

While that's true, it's a really odd proposal to drop into a debate about segregating changing facilities, because that logic would tell us that gay men should be in the ladies changing room, and lesbians should be in the men's. So that won't work.

I don't care what someone's sexual orientation is in the changing room. I only care that we change together because we have the same bodies. I don't get changed in front of my dad, my brother or my gay best friend, none of whom are interested in my body. But I do get changed in front of my lesbian friends, my sister and my mum. It's not about who an individual might find sexually attractive - you must know that?

Where did I say lesbians behave like predatory men? Or that they ogle you? I said someone who fancies woman will have more interest in a woman’s body than someone who is attracted to men.

You’re all very clear to point out when you call transwoman men that it is fact and not transphobic, but very happy to point out mine as homophobic. More double standards.

Also worth pointed out, while men are obviously the sex that behaves worse in terms of sexual assault and violance, it is also well documented that woman are less likely to get convicted or sentenced for a shorter time than men for the same crimes.
Statistics of trans prisoners are also less likely to show smaller crimes such as shoplifting etc and also the statistics list for transgender people, not just transwomen. We are not sure if transmen are convicted of these crimes as it’s also been documented that crime rates of transmen is higher than that of biological woman.
I’m not here to tell you everyone is innocent, just throwing another opinion into it.

Late to this but this You could say that about anything though. Who is going to have more interest in your body if you’re naked? A gay man or a lesbian? But we don’t segregate based on orientation for our own ‘dignity’ is homophobic.
You are assuming that it is acceptable/common for people to ogle naked bodies of strangers they might think look attractive. That assumption is based on the behaviour of some, not all, men.

Most people don't behave like that. I've never been ogled by a lesbian and I've never met anyone else who has.

It is homophobic to suggest lesbians behave like sexually predatory men

Surelybseparation by gender is illegal as gender isn’t a protected characteristic

Gender defined, not mixed sex.

Gender defined IS mixed sex!

'Gender identity' is totally subjective, anyone can claim anything. Surely it makes more sense to segregate by actual sex.

Also, if we do it by 'gender' I cannot access any formally single sex areas at all, because I have no 'gender identity', and a lot of people are in the same boat

Apparently 7 in 10 women in prison are sent to serve sentences of under 6 months.

84% have committed non violent crimes.

How can you make a case that a comparable woman would be in a men's prison if there are no comparable women?

As far as I know there are none. Either women or MTFs with GRCs.

I wonder how many women are in the male estate for this reason.
Even more pertinently, even if they said how many there were I don't think they would say how many were trans.

Sorry, extra ‘nothing’ in that last post.

This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate

According to this transfer cannot have anything nothing to do with the prisoner being trans and can only be because of lack of suitable accommodation.

I wonder how many women are in the male estate for this reason.

Merry, I'm not arguing that these things are right, just that this is how the prisons currently operate. They treat a transwoman with a GRC exactly the same as a woman. In terms of 'exceptionally high risk', then that could also apply to natal women, who would have to be housed in the male estate.

If you don't have a GRC but identify as the opposite gender to your sex then they have a meeting to review, at which you are supposed to show evidence of having lived in that gender. Quite how that would work in the context of self-id I do not know. (Well I do. It wouldn't.)

This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

What a strange coincidence!

Which prison estate you are housed in isn't one of those exceptions.

Agreed, but segregation is on the basis of sex not gender.

Gender is neither a protected characteristic nor an exception to the equalities act.

There are some exceptions listed explicitly, and yes there is a 'proportionate' argument but that doesn't seem to be applied. From PSI 17/2016 (the guidance for prisons):

6.1 Prison Rule 12(1) provides that “Women prisoners shall normally be kept separate from male prisoners”. Unless there are exceptional circumstances, as determined by any type of Transgender Case Board expressly convened for the purpose of determining the most appropriate location, prisoners must be located according to their legal gender.

6.2 Women offenders who present a high risk of harm to other women are managed safely in the female estate. Transgender women who pose similar risks should be managed in a similar way in the female estate. In a judicial review of September 2009 (R (on the application of AB) v Secretary of State for Justice [2009] EWHC 2220 (Admin)) the judge held that a male to female transsexual prisoner with a GRC had to be transferred to the female estate even though one of her index offences was attempted rape of a woman.

6.3 There may be exceptional cases where it is necessary to refuse a transfer to the female estate for a transgender (male to female) prisoner with a GRC. This can only happen if the risk concerns surrounding the prisoner are sufficiently high that other women with an equivalent security profile would also be held in the male estate. If a transfer is refused, the prisoner will be a female prisoner in the male estate. She must be held separately and according to a female prisoner regime as set out in PSO 4800. This provision exists as the male estate has greater capacity to manage prisoners who pose an exceptionally high risk to others.

THE exceptions are not listed afaik. Any single sex space can be refused to a gra holder if the reason is proportionate. Likelihood to commit rape sounds more than proportionate to me. Lack of case law unfortunatly.

Having a GRC means you are to be regarded as the sex and gender that you have changed to, with a few exceptions. Which prison estate you are housed in isn't one of those exceptions.

Can’t help thinking that the exceptions to the EA are just a way of letting gentlemen visit Whites without being troubled by women. It seems to be littered with inconsistencies.

And how can services be segregated by gender given that there are no gender exceptions in EA?

Does legal gender exist? I thought the GRA talked about sex.

Datun, I think that is the case now. I don't know if it applied to the statistics collected as that guidance came in in 2016. Given that it has changed though I'm not sure why they say that it is more likely to apply to prisoners serving longer sentences.

Merrymouse, if you have a GRC you are housed in the prison estate that is your legal gender. I don't think they record how many prisoners have GRCs. There may be a case review if it is deemed that they represent a danger to other inmates (as would apply in general to dangerous prisoners), but I don't think it would be recorded that they were trans still.

I suppose the assumption is that all prisoners are dealt with on a case by case basis, and that it is possible to somehow spot people might identify as female for nefarious reasons.

The MoJ can't count inmates who have not told prison staff they are transgender.

Following the logic of the 2004 GRA that makes sense on the basis that people with a GRC are treated as their acquired sex.

But I thought we weren’t supposed to be worried about impact of self ID on prisons because all trans prisoners are dealt with on a ‘case by case basis’, even those with a GRC?