Confused - Need Clarification

AngryAttack lol! That was not what I was expecting.

Oopster you really can't say that you've been using spaces for years with no issue. Perhaps no issue for you but who knows for women?

I have one friend who encountered female penis in a changing room locally. Friend has experienced severe childhood sexual assault (but I should point out prior assault is not a requirement to wish for penis free spaces). The gym wouldn't support her, so she can't use it now. Neither can her children.

I also vaguely know a Muslim woman who has had to self exclude after penis in the women only swimming sessions.

Women self excluding from opportunities to exercise is a BIG deal. It is to me. The gym is a huge part of my life and keeps me physically and mentally well.

In either of the cases above I bet the penis owner thinks that they have used female spaces with no issues too.

Getting back on topic, as well as the GRA consultation, there is a consultation on enforcement of the EA and the role of EHRC. There was some interesting oral evidence given last Wednesday on the single sex exceptions and the GRA.

Relevant video clips here and here.

Full video

Full transcript

The trouble is I have heard so many different interpretations, from highly respected legal people, of when the exceptions can be used, how they should be applied and what, if any, difference a GRC makes.

There's no legal consensus, there's no case law and the guidance is shit.

A blogger who's sadly gone private found this, and it really is the perfect response to the "simple administrative change" bollocks.

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The newly updated ICD-11 diagnosis of 'gender incongruence' specifically excludes paraphilic disorders. The paraphilic disorders include: 6D30 Exhibitionistic disorder; 6D31 Voyeuristic disorder; 6D32 Pedophilic disorder; 6D33 Coercive sexual sadism disorder; 6D34 Frotteuristic disorder; 6D35 Other paraphilic disorder involving non-consenting individuals.

Removing the requirement for a diagnosis removes the opportunity to screen out individuals who exhibit these paraphilias. This is extremely dangerous for women and girls, who vanishingly rarely exhibit paraphilias themselves.

In 2004 the GRA was passed because a tiny number of people (approx 5000) were suffering greatly with what was recognised as a medical condition called gender dysphoria. The laws were such that trans people could not get married (if they were same sex attracted), could only claim their pension in line with their birth sex, had no protection from discrimination in the provision of housing, employment, goods & services etc., and were regularly 'outed' by mismatching paperwork (we have eyes anyway but whatever).

Women weren't consulted in 2004 but many of the exact same concerns women are raising now were raised back then by MPs and HoL peers. No satisfactory answers were given. The law passed because even if problems arose, it was agreed that this was such a tiny number of people - ~5000 - it would be manageable. It passed because people women budging up was the kind thing to do because this tiny group were having a terrible time on account of their dysphoria and their lack of rights as outlined above.

Fast forward and we now have:

• same sex marriage
• pension age equalises this month (tomorrow, in fact)
• the equality act, protecting trans people from discrimination
• GDPR which introduces extremely strict rules around the handling of sensitive information (we still have eyes but whatever)

The only places a GRC makes a direct difference now are all women shortlists and prisons. And labour are flouting the law with AWS anyway, and prisons have introduced rules to allow TW without a GRC into women's prisons on a case by case basis.

But suddenly it is urgent to reform the GRA?

A couple of other things have changed since 2004:

• A massive increase in numbers. We are now told that there are up to 500,000 trans people (I have seen higher estimates but this was the figure used in the consultation). This is a 10,000% increase in 14 years. We are told that the fact that 'only' 4910 people have a GRC is evidence that the process doesn't work, when this was the original predicted number. All the arguments made in 2004, that this was not an issue because tiny number of people, are now blown out of the water.

• 'Trans is not an illness'. So the reason we were expected to be kind and budge up in the first place has also gone. I can't see any reason why I should now be kind and budge up for some random bloke who's decided he's entitled to women's spaces, services and opportunities because he has a 'gender identity'. That sounds dangerous and unfair to me.

This isn't reform of the GRA, it's repurposing. Different rights for a different (much larger) group of people for different reasons.

Simple administrative change my arse

with little or no issue

LOL! A statement that only sounds reasonable if you don't listen to a single word women say.

WarmWishes, I do get where you’re coming from, and what we’ve heard from the politicians is sketchy at best. What we’ve heard from newspapers is scaremongering - that’s what sells newspapers after all. A friend suggested self ID with a 2 week wait, I’d add a letter from your gp should suffice. We’re alreasy using the single sex facilities that you’re worried about with little or no issue. The ones that end up with problems are normally the trans person themselves. There’s a video online from a few years ago about a transgirl getting beaten up by 2 other girls in a McDonald’s, and no one stepped in to help. No one said to the 2 girls to stop what they were doing. The change will simply make getting a grc easier for those that need one, and no one else will notice any difference.

Have you filled in a tax form recently?

A 2 year wait doesn’t help me now though does it? It doesn’t get me a job to pay the bills now. I can’t tell the jobcebtre to wait for 2 years till I get issues with the proper documents before looking for a job.

Sorry to reply in multiple comments, and I’ve probably missed something out so please accept my apologies.

Just remembered, the gym issue, like I said I don’t want to show what I have, I don’t want others seeing what I have. If I were to get naked in front of someone, well I’ve had surgery so there shouldn’t be any issues, but there’s always that nagging doubt in the back of your head that someone is going to make trouble for you, chances are they won’t, but we all know what nagging doubts are like.

Oopster I can understand your frustration in waiting for a grc given your background & what sounds like significant surgery. Your situation is not typical of the person and (I can only speak for myself here), of the sort of person I am concerned about gaining a grc via self id, ie. a fully in tact male with no intention to transition physically. That's not to say I am completely cool with surgically transitioned male in the changing room either. I don't wish to offend or upset you to say that, it's a natural instinct. However, there's a world of difference between someone who has surgically transitioned and someone who hasn't.

I took one look at the forms and thought “fuuucccckkkk!!!!”.

I don’t have a passport, and if you’re not working, you can’t really justify paying out £80 to get one.

I’m not ashamed of who I am, but there are bigots and idiots about. The number of jobs I’ve lost or not been offered when they found out I’m trans. And what about privacy? Am I not entitled to keep personal information like that to myself?

That is rubbish (what you’re having to put up with), but good luck with it, if that’s the right way to phrase it?

Actually, when I went to university and apply for funding / student loan, I had to show my birth certificate then. I didn’t have to show a birth certificate or passport to prove my right to work in the Uk till David Cameron changed the law. I was in a long term job from 2003 but was made redundant in 2013, so hadn’t needed to prove I had a right to work.

Filling in the application sounds no more complicated than a tax return then?

And a 2 year wait for a non-urgent issue really isn't unusual - plenty of people with plenty of issues have to wait that long, or not be seen at all - just look at what women with PCOS go through to get any kind of treatment for what can be horrendous symptoms.

I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying there's nothing special there - nothing unusually arduous compared to the many other things adults have to do.

Pencils
I think Dr Az Hakeem writes well about the idea in his book Trans: Exploring Gender Identity and Gender Dysphoria.

I think another really interesting, and related, phenomena that he writes about in the same book is about the binary nature of trans politics. He suggests that professionals are typically positioned as being either 'for' or 'against' trans people. I was reminded of this when reading yesterday's posts about the Tavistock.

Hakeem suggests that psychotherapy for gender dysphoria should deconstruct patient perceptions of rigid gender frameworks so as to 'open up a range of what is possible'. He maintains this is important regardless of whether someone is not going to have, going to have or has has had surgery and physical treatment. He claims a rigid adherence to binary gender rules are always going to have a negative impact on someone's life.

I am gender critical and have significant concerns about binary ideas of gender. I am less concerned about non binary ideas but notice myself frequently being drawn into taking a binary stance on gender. This is why his writing resonates with me.

Some psychologists/psychiatrists have written about the phenomena of people becoming confused when thinking about trans issues. They hypothesise that the confusion experienced by trans people is projected on to others.

That sounds interesting MsBeaujangles, do you have a link?

There’s a lot of confusion over the grc and the requirements to get one.

There sure is ...

The initial form is massive and extremely complicated.

It's not that bad. Here it is if anybody wants a look. At 16 pages (many sections of which can be skipped, depending on individual circumstances) it's around half the length of a PIP form and around 1/5 the length of the current form for EU citizens to get a permanent residence card. There's a dedicated admin team to help you. If you make a mistake or omit something they get in touch and advise what you need to do, as opposed to any immigration application where the home office just reject your application and keep your money (which can be £1000's).

Yes you have to have lived “in role” as it were for 2 years prior, and have evidence of such, but how do you go about doing that?

You provide 5-6 different documents in your new name and gender to cover the whole of the two year period. The general guidance notes and the guidance notes to completing the form cover this.

Also, you have to have 2 reports from gender Identity professionals.

You need one report from a gender identity specialist and one from another doctor who doesn't need to be a specialist. You can ask your GP.

Now, that maybe relatively simple if you’re currently being seen by a gender identity clinic, but if like me, you finished with all that over ten years previous, you have to get back into the system to get the reports, and the current waiting time for an initial appointment is 2 years, that’s 104 weeks. Imagine being told that for any other medical issue you have?

I can see the problem for people who transitioned a long time ago. Two years is a lot less than ten years though. Maybe it's not that important to you if you haven't done it in all that time.

Then, a panel who you never meet or know who they are, decide if you’re genuine or not, how do they decide who is and who isn’t genuine?

If you provide all the evidence required they MUST grant a GRC. This was spelled out in a recent appeal case (PDF link):

60. A central feature of all of the submissions advanced on Ms Jay’s behalf by Ms McCann is that the GRA is a statue designed to facilitate gender recognition. To that end, the statutory regime is permissive rather than restrictive. If the applicant satisfies the statutory criteria in s.2(1), the panel must issue a certificate. This is reflected in statistics produced by Ms McCann demonstrating that fewer than 5% of applications to the panel are refused.

Applying for jobs for a start, you have to prove your right to work in the Uk, which means showing a birth certificate.

You can show your passport. A UK or EU passport is acceptable proof on its own. If you want to use your birth certificate you need to provide another document as well from a government agency or past employer, which shows your name and NI no.

What kind of expectations re. discrimination can a person who has the characteristic of gender transition have?

Would it help to think of the protections of other people with protected characteristics? Think about Muslims and Jews, or people who belong to an ethic minority. People tend not to get all that confused about their protections.

Some psychologists/psychiatrists have written about the phenomena of people becoming confused when thinking about trans issues. They hypothesise that the confusion experienced by trans people is projected on to others.

oopster I have never had to show a birth certificate for a job.

Also, why the need to have the birth certificate sex match your gender identity? It smacks of shame, hiding. Surely it’s better to just be wholey, unapologetically yourself?

The initial 2 appointments were within one year, yes but they just got me on to the waiting list that I have been on for 2 years now. That's for an appointment to begin the process of formal diagnosis.
As I say some areas no longer see children with suspected autism at all. Same for dyslexia. So whilst my wait is a bit rubbish, at least there's something to wait for.

Oopster how have you managed 10 years without one? Why do you need one now?

It sounds like you have self excluded based on your own body image concerns but not every trans woman would. Would Jess Bradley? I'm inclined to think there would be many people like Jess who will start to use female changing rooms to prove a point.

I don’t know enough about autism to really comment, but I think there’s been a mix up. I was taking about actually having a 2 year wait to get to a gender identity clinic from being referred by a gp. My first gp refused to help, another one only referred me and my other half after he’d attempted suicide for unrelated reasons (ie nothing to do with him being trans). When we were being seen, there was a minimum of 5 months between appointments, and due to a series of rearranged appointments by the gic, we weren’t seen for nearly 18 months.

I think you’re talking about them taking so long to give you a diagnosis, not an initial appointment.

This is just another reason we need rid of this bloody Tory government as they just don’t fund public services properly.

Got informal diagnosis following initial appointments but need a consultant appointment to get diagnosis.
It took 2 years to get my dd diagnosed. And we are lucky not to be in an area where they are refusing referrals for children.

That’s not good. Is that for an initial appointment or to get the diagnosis?

oopster I'm well over 104 weeks for the appointment to get my autism diagnosed formally so no need to imagine thanks.