A solution to gender vs sex

Declaring gender on Twitter statuses and pronoun badges is one thing; declaring gender on birth certificates is quite another.

BUT utterly support the idea of trying t9 find suitable solutions

How would you even define gender? Maybe someone with too much time on their hands could come up with a Meyers Briggs type of thing for gender, or not, because the idea is nonsense.

Gender is a class analysis of the ways in which cultures socialise male and female people into conformity with patriarchal understanding of how the sexes should operate.

How that socialisation operates on people is dependent on their personalities and environments. You can see how genderisation shapes behaviour overall, but we have no schematic for describing the gender of individuals, the very thought is fantasy.

Sex is a biological reality.

Gender is the outcome of ideology imposed on populations. Individuals don’t have a gender; they think and behave in ways shaped by their experience of genderisation, which is quite different.

Even gender as a tool for class analysis doesn’t rely on the kind of crude sexual stereotypes which this whole movement keeps confusing with gender.

This is not about pink, frilly dresses as some kind of gender expression. It’s about assigning submissive behaviours to the sex class of women to enable men to control their reproductive capacity.

If gender is a personal identity , you can’t put it on a birth certificate as you can’t ask the baby. It’s like deciding the child will be a scientist or a dancer

Your idea is not a flyer though OP sorry

I don't really care either if there is a "gender" box on stuff as long as sex is there too.

Tracking numbers and experiences of trans people is a good idea as no doubt there can be discrimination.

However, it won't fly.

TWAW therefore their sex is female and is from birth. Your idea disputes that picture and is therefore heresy. It's not acceptable.

The end game is sex is taken off everything and everyone pretends they dont' know what sex anyone else is

While structual oppression based on sex continues and in fact is given the opportunity to flourish as no-one can track it / call it out any more.

Can you explain more? Are you saying you can't discriminate against a man who comes to work a dress? Ie tell him to go home and change.

Why not, protection for dress and pronouns.
Then we can all put gender: none and wear whatever we want.

Women want to be recognised as scientists and soldiers and MPs.

Transwomen want to be recognised as female scientists and female soldiers and female MPs.

The only time women want to be recognised in terms of their sex is in employment law, sport, toilet facilities, medicine, rape crisis centres, etc - precisely the areas TRAs have chosen to muscle in on - sometimes literally.

Because it's not defined and it's not measurable or provable.
It is whatever the person says it is.

As is religion.

sexy lol

sex women might cover it though

I don’t see what protection recording gender would give.

What protection does recording religion give? It's to monitor for discrimination and look for trends in employment (isn't it?).

I don't think beign "treated as" a woman involves taking a pay cut, gracefully dealing with blokes all over teh office trying to flirt with you, or being interrupted by passing people looking for directions etc while the men around you rarely are.

The flirting thing happened when I was younger, as far as I can see most transwomen identify as being very sex women in their late teens / early 20s so obviosuly they are expecting this.

I think it's an excellent plan OP. As you say, an opt-in.

I'm with you

I think the notion that birth certificates should be a changeable ongoing running commentary that records a person's feelings, as they age from birth to death, makes a mockery of birth certificates.

Because if he IDs as a woman he wants to be "treated as" a woman (whatvever that means).

While conversely most women want to be treated as people first not women. Beign treated as women first not people is what causes all our problems.

Because it's not defined and it's not measurable or provable.

It is whatever the person says it is.

And always seems to come back to stereotypes so this will be extra bad for women.

I don’t see what protection recording gender would give.

If a man wants to come to work in a dress why should it matter if he identifies as male or female?

It shouldn’t be a sacking offence unless there are some kind of safety issues - in which case a woman shouldn’t be wearing a dress either.

General public think gender means sex and would be baffled.

Additionally, there is no firm definition of what "internal gender" is from trans advocates, which will make things tricky.

I think encoding gender id as a thing in law is a bad move.

"I read that over 90% of the population gender id match their birth sex "

Where, do you remember?

I have a real issues with this.

Trans activitsts eg stonewall have asserted that the vast majority of people have an "internal gender id" and that for teh vast majority of people this "matches their sex assigned at birth" (observed).

This idea is a lynchpin of the movement but has anyone actually checked that this IS true?

Certainly I have no internal sense of gender ID which apparently is "rare" but then a thread on here years ago revealed that lots of other women didn't have this feeling either.

The response to this is that women are so comfortable in their own skins (HAHAHAHA) that they dont' notice their internal innate womanliness AKA we don't know our own minds. V progressive.

Trans people by definition have this feeling and this has been extrapolated to beign true for the rest of the population.

In reality if IF people were given proper definitions of sex and gender and then asked about their internal feelings, who knows what the response would be. I suspect most people would b2 "agender" or "nonbinary" ie under the trans "umbrella". We don't KNOW though do we as no-one has asked, it has been assumed.

The real kicker here is that many women have been fighting very hard for a long time to be seen as people, not as women first. This is the reason I am a feminist, from when I was young I was always being treated / spoken to etc a certain way or having stuff happen because poeple saw girl and then woman. I always felt like a person inside but as my external appearance is patriarchy approved while my preferences and interestes are more coded "masculine", I apent a lot of time feeling pissed off at all the assumptions poeple made about me.

Feminists esp radical ones are pretty much by definition gender non conforming and always have been. By stonewall definition that makes us all "trans". Strangely, it seems that the "right" to self idenitfy only goes one way though. Men can identify as women. Women are STILL not allowed to identify as people.

While thing is regressive bullshit.

Thanks for reading lol

What on earth do you mean by gender though?

Gender is sex based stereotypes. And it relates back to biology (i.e. sex).

What are the criteria I need to refer to to determine my gender?

Makeup, unambitious, likes unicorns?

I agree transactivists won't go for it. They don't want to not be discriminated against. They want to be called women.

But it's interesting when people try and compromise, because it shows that there are still a number of people who think gender is something other than stereotypes.

As interesting an intellectual exercise as it is to think of ways in which 'compromise' could be reached, you must know that Transactivists won't go for this.

I'd put up with gender being included on birth certificates.

What what would it mean? Is it a question of accepting clothes and pronouns?
Because I can't think of anything else that it would affect.

I’m thinking it’d be like recording religion, to monitor and protect against discrimination.

Can you explain more? Are you saying you can't discriminate against a man who comes to work a dress? Ie tell him to go home and change.