A solution to gender vs sex

Transpeople certainly think they face discrimination and higher than expected levels of violence. Thus I think it is very important to collect data to support or refute that claim and to enable actions to be taken to overcome any discrimination.

How would you get that information by recording gender? You can only correlate violence against transgender people by recording that they are transgender.

How could you determine the degree of violence against transwomen if the majority of those who identify as women are, in fact, women?

You can’t get this information by asking

(a) Sex
(b) Gender
(c) Have you ever experienced violence?

You can’t simply deduct (a) from (b) to determine how many transwomen have experienced (c).

I work with data and a good deal of my time is weeding out noise - as well as complying with the data protection act so that we aren’t holding information that is unnecessary for the purpose of my job.

Gender is just noise.

Transpeople certainly think they face discrimination and higher than expected levels of violence. Thus I think it is very important to collect data to support or refute that claim and to enable actions to be taken to overcome any discrimination.

Thus, recording gender alongside sex should be supported.

Such data could also be used to reassure women that transwomen are no more of a threat to women than women, as they assert.

It could actually be really informative to highlight biological bias. E.g. how many female women vs. male women take parental leave, go part time etc. etc.

You’d have to correlate biological women (sex) against transwomen so you’d have to ask if they were transwomen, not gender.

Asking ‘gender’ would exclude biological women who identify as male.

Nice as it is that you’re trying to find a solution, this is a bureaucratic nonsense.

Give me an example of one useful statistic that could be derived from recording gender - other than how many people identify as that gender.

Other than how many people identify as that gender - that would be interesting for a start.

It could actually be really informative to highlight biological bias. E.g. how many female women vs. male women take parental leave, go part time etc. etc.

So you look at stats for 'female' if you want to see what harassment is occurring because of biology. There would be no fudging of the two if sex and gender are clearly separated and recorded.

Give me an example of one useful statistic that could be derived from recording gender - other than how many people identify as that gender.

You have noticed the push for lowering the age at which someone can 'identify' as another gender?

Maybe let people identify as another gender at whatever age they want then. Give them a framed certificate or something. Just make absolutely clear it has nothing to do with sex.

Still won't work. You have noticed the push for lowering the age at which someone can 'identify' as another gender?

Are men pinching women’s bottoms or telling them to ‘put the kettle on, luv,’ harassing transwomen in precisely the same way? Because if transwomen aren’t having men rub up and down them in crowded lifts then the percentage of ‘women’ suffering this form of harassment will go down if transwomen are included in the stats.

So you look at stats for 'female' if you want to see what harassment is occurring because of biology. There would be no fudging of the two if sex and gender are clearly separated and recorded.

And exactly what age would someone be asked to put their gender on their birth certificate?

Or would we get to decide at 18 whether we wanted to be treated like a woman or like a man?

Craziness.

Yes, but putting a 'gender' option on a birth certificate wouldn't work, would it? Because it would just be another layer of 'oppression' that trans people would have to face if they decide later in life that they don't conform to the 'gender assigned at birth'.

I understand the motivation to find a workable solution, but this will just perpetuate all the current tantrums and disagreements.

For information just to qualify a couple of things in this thread.

The original birth record of sex under the GRA is not altered. That birth certificate remains on record and permanently linked to the amended copy given to the trans person.

Neither certificate can be accessed by the public, but the link between the two can be where any legitimate cause to know of a change exists, for example police wanting to identify sex at birth for a crime.

Only about 3000 transsexual women have altered birth certificates in the UK as they require a GRC first and doctors assessing reasons to amend.

This would all change under self ID if it were approved.

No doctors would be involved - the change of birth certificate would be entirely self declared and not assessed in any way. Age to change would not be adult only but could be open to school children (16 is being asked for as lower limit). And 3000 would be possibly become hundreds of thousands.

What protection does recording religion give? It's to monitor for discrimination and look for trends in employment (isn't it?).

What trends does recording gender show?

Are men pinching women’s bottoms or telling them to ‘put the kettle on, luv,’ harassing transwomen in precisely the same way? Because if transwomen aren’t having men rub up and down them in crowded lifts then the percentage of ‘women’ suffering this form of harassment will go down if transwomen are included in the stats.

If a transwoman is denied a promotion due to prejudice it is prejudice against them because they are trans, not because they are women.

They aren’t being denied advancement because the employer thinks they’ll quit work if they get married or have babies.

I can't think of any reason why gender would need to be recorded on a birth certificate. If a person identifies as a particular gender, how would anyone know what to put on a baby's birth certificate anyway?

A tiny portion of the population can pursue their faith in gender, but it will have no relationship or relevance to sex or to sex based recognition, monitoring, spaces, services or rights.

This! This! This!

"Sex is a biological reality."

Not according to that letter signed by a trillion USA sceintists, as per the other thread.

We will be burning biology books soon. I'm not kidding.