A solution to gender vs sex

I've just checked on some old church records. They appear to record a birth as 'son of' or 'daughter of' so it sounds as if sex has been registered from earliest records.

Chesterton's fence: why do we record sex on the birth certificate?

As an identifier.

Then they need to ask about the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. They won't establish that by recording somebody's gender.

I was just responding to your point that you have never been asked your religion at work. They should be asking these things to be able to monitor for equal opportunities.

My point about religion was that asking for gender identity would be similar. It's not something tangible but something that means a lot to people and is something that can lead to discrimination. I know it's not a protected characteristic and I wouldn't want it to be (unless it is COMPLETELY decoupled from sex).

I guess we record sex to have a record of how many males and females we have in society and to keep a track of things like educational achievement, crime rates, careers etc to see if there are any patterns.

I don't see why you would put gender identity on a birth certificate. It would be like putting religion on (as I think they do in some countries). You can make an educated guess what religion a person will be, but it is likely to change.
Chesterton's fence: why do we record sex on the birth certificate?

I think that there should probably be some record of the number of transgender people. Yes, gender is a nebulous concept but how else can we measure the number of trans people or respond to their needs. I don’t think a birth certificate should be changed but I do think a gender recognition certificate should be available and I would like to see more targeted services and spaces for trans people.
I believe we can support and help trans people without pretending that we all have a gender identity and that biology is a social construct. To take all forms of official recognition away from trans people is not the answer but nor is it right to record gender identity on everyone’s documents.
Basically, I would have little issue with self ID if it didn’t carry with it the right to access single sex spaces. I don’t want to make life hard for trans people but the way things are developing now, women’s rights are being compromised.

Organisations are supposed to monitor equal opportunities for all the protected characteristics.

Then they need to ask about the protected characteristic of gender reassignment. They won't establish that by recording somebody's gender.

How would you record gender if it is a spectrum?
It sounds as if your perceived gender is a reaction to stereotyped expectations from others, so it is likely to be quite fluid.

I also wouldn't know what to put on a form for gender. I don't think about it, except where I have had to struggle against unfairness. Maybe just 'person' so I didn't limit career etc etc

What is needed in many cases where tere may be relevence is 'sex'(male/ female) and an open box to allow those who have a 'gender identity' to record it there.

Both answers should be respected.

Humans can't change sex.

In other words keep the kindly intentions of the original act, and update, but not radically change it.

I don't think anyone has a problem with those the act was intended for but when it gets to the point that rapists are put in women's prisons something has gone dreadfully wrong. That's what causes people to jump out of the window.

If the door is broken please fix it, don't jump out of the window.
This is already complex enough. New rules(laws) rarely make things better. All progress is recuperated and used against those who fought for it.
The answer in this case is the minimum change to gra because parts of it are a bit outdated and oppressive, but not so it impinges on women's spaces, or allow men who have no intention of behaving in a respectful way to tell us what to do.
In other words keep the kindly intentions of the original act, and update, but not radically change it.

You’d still have to define what constitutes a “woman gender” and the only way to do that would mean codifying stereotypes into law.

The point is that sex and gender would be completely separate so it wouldn't actually matter what a woman gender was.

Anything sex segregated would go by sex (homeless shelters, toilets, hospital wards, sports etc) and those running it could ask for ID if it was felt necessary. ID would record sex and gender identity.

At least I'm pretty sure that's what the OP means.

I don’t think I have been asked my religion since the last time I completed the census and I’ve certainly never been asked for my religion as an employee.

Organisations are supposed to monitor equal opportunities for all the protected characteristics.

gender is a spectrum

Gender is a social construct, historically and culturally specific. It’s an oppressive set of social expectations and conditioning (socialisation). A set of roles which oppresses women and tries to make them accept that they are less than fully human.

I don’t think I have been asked my religion since the last time I completed the census and I’ve certainly never been asked for my religion as an employee.

For marketing purposes they can just target you depending on what you have looked at or bought before, more accurate than gender, and people don't just buy for themselves.

Titles you would need to know which one, not just the gender, unless we have Master/Miss for children and Mr/Ms for adults, and then there is Dr and so on too.

You’d have to correlate biological women (sex) against transwomen so you’d have to ask if they were transwomen, not gender.

Asking ‘gender’ would exclude biological women who identify as male.

The point would be to clearly separate sex and gender so female and male would be sexes, not genders.

For gender identity you could choose none, man, women, non-binary etc, etc.

Each person would have a sex and a gender marker so that sex and gender are clearly separate.

Would you say that data on employees religion is just noise?

Gender is just noise.

It depends on what your data is for though. On a marketing database gender is probably likely to be relevant; you can target feminine gender people with lipstick and cleaning products and you can address people with the pronouns they prefer.

I could imagine that gender on a passport or driving license is also quite useful, but only alongside sex, not instead of, as they’re used as ID.

There was a post here recently along the lines of there being a case to record both at the doctors. It would allow your doctor to send letters saying ‘dear miss x, you are now due a prostate exam’.

But a birth certificate has no business recording gender.

(And yes, I realise cleaning products would still only be marketed at female sex people, not feminine gender people...)

It won't fly anyway

Agreed the trans person needs to accept they are trans and record gender separately to sex, but if they want me or the law to take their claims of discrim8natiom seriously they need to prove it.

Their choice. It’s up to them to reject this, not us to reject it on their behalf.

"Nice as it is that you’re trying to find a solution, this is a bureaucratic nonsense."

This

It won't fly anyone.

Step 1 confuse gender and sexx
Step 2 get everyone to accept that people can self declare gender
Step 3 get rid of sex as a concept / marker / legal characteristic
Step 4 return to patriarchy-max oppression of women (cunty)

The other thing is in eg a school it's totally obvious which are which

And from age 8 the sexes are supposed to be separated for changing etc (although multiple trans orgs have been into schools telling them this is not the case and if teen boys say they want to change with the girls then this must be allowed, if the girls are uncomfortable they must be re-educated / change elsewhere / if it's something voluntary eg after school sport they must reconsider whether it's teh right thing for them etc).

"Employers, schools and authorities should only ever ask for your sex when there is an equal opportunities act reason to know "

"Gender" pay gap?

Which currently actually goes with people's self identified gender not their sex

How many male vs female facilities they need?
Whether they are achieving decent levels of female representation through the ranks or if low paid roles are dominated by one sex with high paid roles by another (links to gender pay but companies tend to do more drill down, gender pay data is blunt insturment but still worth doing IMO)

There's more I;m sure.

Someone (somewhere - i can't remember who) suggested an even more elegant solution.

Sex is sex. On birth certificate. Cannot be changed apart from in exceptional circumstances (DSD..) as you say.

Anyone, for a low fee, can get a copy of their birth certificate with the sex redacted.

Employers, schools and authorities should only ever ask for your sex when there is an equal opportunities act reason to know (e.g. health, safeguarding, access to single sex facilities).