Jordan Peterson on Question Time next Thursday

As for supporting Tommy Robinson, I have no words. No, he is a racist who nearly fucking jeopardised several trials due to his extreme idiocy. He gives no shits about women, which is why he also has no qualms about assaulting them.

What does "aligning themselves" mean in the context of your post JC4PMPLZ?

It's the "Hitler was a vegetarian" tactic. It means I'm going to try to discredit your argument by picking the most extreme example of persons who might have the same point of view on one particular issue and pretend that you agree with everything they say.

Citing Tommy Robinson is a particularly egregious employment of the tactic. I doubt anyone here aligns with him.

It's a bullying tactic and a bit dim.

By aligning with, I guess things like retweeting support, expressing approval for, refusing to condemn etc.

Andrea Dworkin was extreme and presented an extreme version of feminism, but she was undoubtedly feminist. Someone like Trump or Peterson believe the exact opposite of what feminists do. They want to preserve the structures that favour men. I don’t think they are comparable really.

What does "aligning themselves" mean in the context of your post JC4PMPLZ?

Reanimated is spot on about various people on this board aligning themselves with Trump, or Tommy Robinson or whatever misogynistic shitface just because of some apparently mutually held criticism.

I don't like JP, t he is entitled to his opinions. One of he good things about Question Time is that they do usually try to get a balanced table, which is better than an echo chamber.

The problem is that when you lend credence to his world-view, your own stance loses credibility

Most of you think Andrea Dworkin is a genius yet I wonder outwith a congregation of the converted how much credibility is lost when anyone starts quoting her.

Reanimated SGB's points are just an outpouring of hyperbolic insults, including a little dig at "anti-sex" feminists, so I'm not inclined to give her argument much credibility.

The problem is that when you lend credence to his world-view, your own stance loses credibility. I am not talking about you Lass because you don’t identify as a GC feminist. But for those of you who are GC and resist socially constructed gender-roles and believe that biological essentialism has harmed women throughout history, how do you square that with support for Petersen who believes the opposite? Do you reason that it doesn’t matter because the single issue you agree on is more important?

People who love this dickhead: Incels, MRAs, superstitious twat-waffles, white men who think that white men are the most oppressed group in the world...

I find some of what he has to say interesting. I'm none of those things. My son, who is a white, middle class , privately educated male far from thinking that he is a member of an oppressed group agrees with Peterson that men need to grow up. We both agree with Peterson that identify politics is a disease.

There is a strand among GC feminism that is reminiscent of the anti-sex/anti-porn feminism of the 80s and 90s - that view that it's fine to make friends with rightwing douchebags if they agree with you on your pet obsession

Oh my. I really love this objection to him. I'm not a gender critical feminist. I am strongly anti- porn and anti prostitution (I assume by "anti-sex" you really mean "doesn't think prostitution is just a work choice like any other")

Many people for different reasons are anti-porn and anti- prostitution. You make it sound as if it were a bad thing.

People who love this dickhead: Incels, MRAs, superstitious twat-waffles, white men who think that white men are the most oppressed group in the world...

There is a strand among GC feminism that is reminiscent of the anti-sex/anti-porn feminism of the 80s and 90s - that view that it's fine to make friends with rightwing douchebags if they agree with you on your pet obsession. The thing you have in common is not so much your view on this particular obsession, it's a fondness for the idea that other people need to be firmly controlled...

Okay go for it in supporting him, but many feminists will not be joining you. He is an MRA and he actively stands against feminism. He believes in biological essentialism, which I thought we all stood against. A world with people like him in power would not be a good world, even if it did resolve certain social problems like self-ID. Supporting an MRA hero is like turkeys voting for Christmas to me.

Lass I was hinting at an answer. Just because women are entitled to education, ifvthe level of respect for women in general is low, women will tend not to go to male dominated professions.

Sexual violence is an indication of how men in sweeden treat women in practise. It’s unusually high .

So you have a negative pushing women away from some professions, and If you don’t get financially penalised for following a traditionally female profession the motivation to go into traditionally male professions is less str9ng.

I’ve heard him say some things which I enthusiastically agreed with. And some stuff I thought was kind of bonkers. I have the impression that going from an academic saying interesting things, to a kind of public figurehead has impacted on his critical thinking.

Replying to myself, isn’t it interesting that UN equality metrics do not actually take in account the real bad stuff that’s happens to women. Violence against women is not included, yet is an indiactirvor how women are actually viewed by society and people in general .I wonder if the equality metrics were defined by men?

The Sweden question is fascinating. Legally they have worked hard towards gender equality

And I have never seen an answer given to that paradox.

anyone who cosies up to him (literally or metaphorically) is no feminist, because he is very openly anti-feminist

What is this even supposed to mean ? Is Peterson opposed to women being educated, voting, working, holding office? Of course not.

He , with some personal reluctance, supports abortion. He is anti-porn.

The sweeden question is fascinat8bg. Legally they have worked hard towards gender equality.

In practise however, how they treat women may indicate some deep seated issues. RATEs of sexual violence seem very high.

It also seems that there is a race problem, with most rape convictions involving migrants.

www.usnews.com/news/best-countries/articles/2016-10-20/violence-against-women-in-5-charts

reporting rates ?Elsewhere I have seen estimations of under reporting at 80%. For comparison the uk est8nates 75 to 95% under reporting

Also note that it is only this year that sweeden consider a crime rape even if no violence or threat was involved.
..ie only this year does no mean no.

anyone who cosies up to him (literally or metaphorically) is no feminist, because he is very openly anti-feminist this is where tribalism goes wrong. It is possible to fundamentally disagree on some things but agree on others even though you are coming from a completely different standpoint.

Jordan Peterson has some interesting views. He has said that forced monogamy would be a solution to reducing male violence. I think he has said that the gender pay gap is a natural consequence of male / female difference. Should be interesting.

He is anti-porn and has spoken about the damage porn culture does to men.

Jordan Peterson is one of the most misrepresented intellectuals in mainstream media. If you listen or read what he has to say in media sources that aren't edited i.e podcasts or you tube (I wouldn't recommend the edited you tube complications that claim to show him roasting opponents in a debate, as they will be taken out of context of a wider conversation) you'll find that he is definitely not a misogynist. He doesn't claim that there isn't any inequality in the world of gender inequality, he just points out that there is evidence that there are also other explanations for the gender pay gap other than male domination. Here is a link to an interesting discussion with Claire Lehman editor of Quillette if anyone would like to hear some of these topics in more detail
He might be critical about certain aspects of the feminism agenda but he is not a woman hater, if anything he recognises the struggles many modern women have to contend with in order to raise children and have a career better than most male academics I have heard.
His message is popular with young men but he isn't specifically targeting them....I think he really wants to reach out to all young people with his message of taking responsibility for yourself and seeking meaning in your life. He triumphs individualism over the needs of the group...sort yourself out first and this will help your family, your community etc..
I am a fan personally which obviously makes me biased but there have been some pretty scandalous claims made about him, particularly by left wing media as he is very critical of the radical left and identity politics as a whole, so I'd urge anyone who hasn't made up their mind about him to seek out some of his longer format conversations to really weigh up whether he has something interesting to say.
He has a daughter and a son and an infant granddaughter I think!

What’s not to like? Maybe the fact that he is a right-wing misogynistic shit who believes that feminism and gender-equality is a load of nonsense. Seriously, no matter what he says about transgender stuff, anyone who cosies up to him (literally or metaphorically) is no feminist, because he is very openly anti-feminist. Probably won’t be a very popular post, but hey....

He will be interesting to watch, he is a bit of a hero to Men’s Rights activists and will use examples of Scandinavian countries with greater sexual equality resulting in less and less women going into engineering and science not more. His profile rose as a University professor in Canada when he refused to comply with laws telling him to use a students preferred pronouns - eg calling a man she etc. He waffles on a bit - and is normally used to giving talks or having long interviews 1 on 1 . On Question Time he will be very polarising and come across as both anti Feminist and anti Trans Rights Activists - Whilst also telling men to stop watching porn - tidy their rooms and stand up straight I assume he has teenage sons - His mantra is equality of opportunity not equality of outcome