Email from Girl Guides

An idea...

I was recently talking to someone who is a matron at a boys boarding school. She said that "issues" were not unknown, including men seeking employment in order to be close to boys. Constant vigilance was required. (And actually I would not be certain that boarders were any less safe than kids living at home where parents were less alert to the possibility of grooming.)

Boarding schools have some sort of dedicated welfare inspections which look closely at safeguarding etc. Would this sort of established inspection system be a better starting point for groups offering residential services than Stonewall and panels involving Pips Bunce.

As a minimum there are some groups of girls whose parents will not want them mixing with males because of their religion so they know they will need to ask them for starters - how do they propose doing that? And why not extend that to all parents instead of discriminating between the two groups?

A PP on a previous thread pointed out that she was fostering a vulnerable girl who could not be accommodated in mixed sex accommodation for own protection (a condition imposed by social services) & that she’d have to withdraw her from GG. That’s the reality of this shoddy policy. It sucks and GG deserve all the heat they are getting over this.

I also included some wording in my reply along the lines of implementation, basically assuming that from here on in separate sleeping and changing facilities will be provided at events & activities, no questions asked, whether there are transgender members & leaders or not. I also raised the point of the extra demand this will place on activities & venues & volunteer numbers.
It was a bit tongue in cheek but then I went on to say basically you can't be expecting members to come to you and 'request' this provision on a case-by-case basis, because we've all seen how women are treated when they raise a need for sex segregated spaces from transgender people, so I assume you will be providing it all the time as a matter of course; or you won't be sufficiently protecting your guides and you will be placing volunteers, leaders and guides in very awkward embarrassing and exposed positions if they feel they need something which other people might deem transphobic or exclusionary.

Whether it’s on its own form or incorporated into other forms, used just once when guides join or additionally for big events and camps, point is that they need to have standard way of asking the question.

They on the other hand are probably hoping that the op and others have not noticed the disconnect that the op raised - that if they can’t tell people then how will people know to ask...

Which is why if the op replies to them (or if others raise it with them) it’s important to raise this suggestion so they can only answer yes we are going to implement that (in which case they will need to send it out to the parents of all guides, which is going to mean that a lot of people are potentially going to be peak transed when they look into it) or they are going to answer no - in which case the follow up answer is ‘well how exactly are you going to implement the policy if you can’t tell people so they know to say anything and you haven’t asked them what their choice would be?’ As a minimum there are some groups of girls whose parents will not want them mixing with males because of their religion so they know they will need to ask them for starters - how do they propose doing that? And why not extend that to all parents instead of discriminating between the two groups?

Whatever the answer is - it’s important. If it’s yes - then a fuss needs to be kicked up if the forms aren’t available soon and there need to be some unbiased info sheets from reliable sources like Transgender Trend and WEP etc so when parents go hunting for info they find it.

Or if the answer is no, then people need to be complaining that it shows they are saying one thing and doing another.

If the answer is ‘we’re still thinking about it’ that’s basically a no and a hope that you’ll forget...

Hope that makes sense as to why it’s important to put the question to them!

Thanks Girl Guides for taking away the right of teenage girls to say no to dicks in their private spaces.

This exactly. I'm not sure my DD would say anything in this situation because she wants to be nice. Adults have the responsibility to set boundaries for kids and help kids enforce their own boundaries. This is basically unbelievable.

Girlguiding will at least need a general form where parents indicate, whether they are ok with girls sleeping in accommodations together with transgirls or being cared for by transwomen guides and then implementing this accordingly so they can follow their own policies of allowing girls and their families to make this choice while protecting data.

If they are using ‘data protection’ to help their cause by fudging the answer then maybe use it too...

‘So, in the interests of maintaining data protection while also actively safeguarding guides, if you are unable to disclose to parents that there is a male child that identifies as a girl on an individual basis, surely you need to be collecting this information on any form where it involves an activity that involves individuals needing to use toilets, get changed or sleep - along the lines of ‘i do/ do not give my permission for my child to share washing/toilet/changing facilities with —boys/men-/ guides/guiders who identify as female but still have a penis*’.

*not sure how best to phrase this bit so that it provides enough information to be completely clear as to what they are agreeing to without incurring the wrath of TRAs/stonewall etc

But if they had to have a sentence like that on all their forms (a bit like the standard blurb that schools and clubs have these days about being photographed) it could be incredibly powerful because of the questions it would raise straight away (would be needed on joining form for general everyday stuff like sharing loos at meetings) and then again for every trip...

And they can’t argue about just having it when it’s needed as that would mean sending forms out if someone joins who is trans which would put them so it needs to be there all the time... and after all if they do not see it as a big issue and are happy to provide alternative arrangements (can’t remember their precise phrase) then what issues can they have with doing this in order to properly safeguard the girls in their care?

The downside for them (and upside for good sense) is that they will probably discover that people do care, do start talking about it having been none the wiser before and they do need to find a lot of ‘alternative’ accommodation they were anticipating hVing to...

Well, if I was the parent of girl who wanted to join the Guides, I would only permit her to join if she never went on any trips with them. So sad as that is the best bit.

How on earth can such addle-headed people have charge of the care of youngsters?

This has included organising separate facilities for anyone who wants or needs them. So if all the natal girls want this, will it be accomodated?

Who is deciding whether a trans child is eligible to joint the girl guides and on what criteria? Is it the same for each group? If there are no guidelines, how do they know that discrimination isn't happening?

When this guides stuff first came up, my friend misunderstood the posts about it and actually emailed Guiding to ask if its true they are now mixed sex and asked if her son could join. The reply stated that Guides is only for girls and as such her son would not be eligible. I do wonder what they would have said if after the waffle, she replied that he now 'identifies' as a girl. Might actually ask her to do that and see what they say, as their reply mad it 'clear' that they are female only, while not being female only!

happydappy2. Blimey. How does the school handle the sleeping arrangements?

I don't know that The Equality Act 2010 applies to children. And it is not about "the gender they identify with" it is about gender transition.

100% agree with SirVixofVixHall

"A GRC gives some advantages in some circs, but is irrelevant anyway as only adults can get one.
I also feel that insisting that gender questioning young boys are actual girls, isn’t giving them much room to change their minds as they go through puberty."

"How are girls or their parents supposed to ask for separate accommodation from male bodied people if they aren't being told about it? This seems contradictory to me."

So how would they stop a natal boy who identities as a boy from joining? I mean the boy could have a neutral name like 'Sam' that could be a boy or a girl. Would they rely on Sam admitting he was a boy?

I had a similar email & sent a reply which asked for, amongst other things, a clarification as to whether they were a mixed sex single gender organisation, or mixed gender too, which would be best to ensure inclusivity for transboys & non-binary young people. Because I genuinely do believe that if they are going mixed sex (which they clearly are) then they should properly embrace the inclusivity & ditch gender stereotypes.

I have also written to their insurance company - but no reply.

I'm hoping someone has already done this but it wouldn't hurt to do it again. Could you write to the Chair of the GG board of trustees. A very short, straightforward letter, stating your concerns about them enabling male and female GGs to sleep in the same spaces. Ask how this sits alongside their safeguarding/child protection policy and ask whether they have informed their public liability insurer that their policy allows male and female GGs to share accommdation.

Charity trustees have legal duties, so it would be good to approach them by writing to the Chair.

Hi OP. I’m happy to help you but I won’t be able to look at this until tomorrow. Work commitments taking over today!

This needs to be tested in a court of law. What happens if a trans girl wishes to board at an all girls boarding school? Would the head have to let them share a dorm with girls, and not tell other girls parents?
Is this already happening?
We have a trans boy at our sons boarding school, but were only informed about it when a newspaper broke the story.

Makes my blood boil.

Thanks Girl Guides for taking away the right of teenage girls to say no to dicks in their private spaces.

On another guides thread a poster had a reply from (I think) ehrc saying that guides could choose to be single sex if they wanted, or single gender.
The ehrc guidence makes it clear in a number of cases that you can exclude a tw without a GRC from single sex activities etc if there is a good reason.
There are two levels here too. Participating in guides and sharing changing/sleeping spaces.
They have been schooled by lobby groups to one interpretation of the law. They think they are likely to be sued by a trans girls parents for excluding. They are probably correct.
I wish there could be a judge's ruling on this somehow because I think they are wrong on the ea.
The evidence heard in hoc yesterday was interesting and hopefully there will be much better guidence in the future.

They don't address the risk assessment of penises in (what were) female only spaces either

FFSFFSFFS that’s exactly what it means which as the OP points out it is bonkers, because they also refuse to let anyone know if someone with a dick will be present. Totally lack of informed consent.

I would point them in the direction of EHRC's submission to the GRA consultation and its remarks on single sex services/organisations. In particular, how it feels the exemptions in EqA should operate. Particularly pages 26 and 27, which deal with overnight accommodation.

www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/consultation-response-gender-recognition-act-18-october-2018.pdf

This has included organising separate facilities for anyone who wants or needs them.

Do they mean that girls have to sleep separately if they don't want to sleep in the same space as someone with a dick? I suspect it does....