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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

My employer has invited Susie Green for a transgender inclusion event

110 replies

cornflakegirl · 01/11/2018 11:00

We have a new Head of Diversity. He has invited Susie Green for a panel event at my office. The new "transitioning at work" policy will also be launched the same day. We're also partnering with Stonewall, so I can imagine what the policy is likely to say.

I'm willing to stand up as GC at work, but I also need to keep my job, so need to do it calmly and respectfully. Any advice on how to approach this?

OP posts:
VickyEadie · 01/11/2018 13:08

I'm guessing she'll give a very emotive speech about her own experiences (with perhaps a bit of reference to her child's...) in order to establish the 'we must be kind because otherwise people kill themselves' narrative. As a result, questions might not even be allowed and any sort of 'challenging' ones might be given short shrift by whoever is running the event.

I'm with those who think you need to challenge how this policy was written - and who was (and was not) consulted on it - before this event.

R0wantrees · 01/11/2018 13:08

I would simply make your employer aware that respected journalists such as Janice Turner, Andrew Gilligan and James Kirkup have been discussing the influence of lobby groups including Mermaids and the implications for policies and legislations which affect sex based as well as gender based rights.
That with regards Mermaids, whilst it provides support for families and children, it also has a history of conflict with the NHS specialist provider of support for children and young people and has been cited as problematic in a court case.

That it seems likely that more will discussed and your employer may wish to wait before taking a position which endorses a particular organisation and individual.

MrsFogi · 01/11/2018 13:06

In addition to asking questions on the day I think you should be raising concerns prior to the event, having conversations with colleagues prior to the event so that they can have thought through the issues rather than end up simply accepting what they are told.

Manderleyagain · 01/11/2018 12:54

Make sure you know what the law is yourself.
The equality act itself is straightforward to read but obviously doesn't talk about how it will pan out in real life situations.
Unfortunately the EHRC guidance on equality law is long, confused and unclear, but it's the best thing there is.

Payfrozen · 01/11/2018 12:48

medium.com/@kathleenstock/womens-place-talk-full-text-house-of-lords-oct-10th-2018-b1f3d70c4559

A friend found this speech by Prof Kathleen Stock helpful when facing a similar dilemma about new policies in her work place. The speech outlines concerns about public bodies (including government) being advised by people with lived experience without inclusion of evidence or expert advice.

Friend just keeps saying that her workplace already has diversity and inclusion policies that should be used...

TigerDrankAllTheWaterInTheTap · 01/11/2018 12:37

I agree you need to keep SG's personal situation right out of it.

I'd be homing in on the difference between sex and gender, the fact that sex is a protected characteristic under the Equalities Act and gender isn't (although gender reassignment is) and practical things like respecting everybody's sensitivities when it comes to introducing mixed sex toilets, for example. Mention strict religious requirements for men and women to have separate toilets and changing rooms, for example. If the organisation is to be truly inclusive, it needs to balance up competing rights and do its best to include everyone in the best way for each group - otherwise they could unintentionally end up excluding some groups.

If you felt up to it you could also try to talk about how female socialisation can mean that women are often unlikely to speak frankly and forthrightly about how they really feel when asked to budge up and make room for someone else - they can feel they must be kind and caring to a vulnerable group, so their own needs and preferences will have to be sidelined. Women who have been abused and who need male-free space are particularly unlikely to speak up and explain why, for obvious reasons.

You could also point out that most women are particularly keen on privacy when dealing with periods and that most men would also probably not want to make women feel uncomfortable about this kind of thing. (Let's assume the best about your male colleagues.)

The recent opinion poll results might be useful as back up. Helen Staniland published the results on Twitter and there's a thread here somewhere.

cornflakegirl · 01/11/2018 12:34

Our business is nothing to do with kids. Pretty sure the SG thing is just virtue signalling.

senua and RiverTam - I think I agree with you - easier to get stuff changed if they don't have to publicly backtrack. I don't like challenging stuff that I haven't seen - don't want to come across as rude and assuming that he hasn't done his job properly. But I think a factual email setting out Tam's points could be the way forward.

OP posts:
R0wantrees · 01/11/2018 12:34

The Allsorts School Guidance toolkit which is promoted by Mermaids has been identified as contravening some legislation and good practice:

analysed here by Claire Graham:

nauticant · 01/11/2018 12:33

4. Ask what transgender encompases. Someone told you it included cross-dressers as well as those with dysphoria. Is that true?

I like this suggestion. According to Stonewall, the trans umbrella embraces people who have gone down the surgical path, or intend to do so, people who won't do this and have no intention to do so but consider themselves to have a transgender identity, and cross-dressers. Does she agree with these different groups being within the trans umbrella?

And then a follow-up question: it's commonly said in the community that people can be transgender without needing to have gender dysphoria. Does she agree with that?

However, these are pointed questions and I would expect that they could be very out of step with the vibe of the event and you could look like you were making it personal.

concretesieve · 01/11/2018 12:33

Many good suggestions here. I also like Needmoresleep's approach.

EverardDigby · 01/11/2018 12:30

I agree with MrsAird that it's a bit weird that Susie Green and Mermaids are focused around children, so what does she bring to workplace policies and what is the talk about?

I'm impressed you're planning on going and questioning though!

Ereshkigal · 01/11/2018 12:29

And needmoresleep's approach is always one I favour if you have the ovaries as you've got to be good at acting to pull off the innocent tone and get to the heart of the matter with the right words.

MrsAird · 01/11/2018 12:26

I would not go to the event.

Instead I would calmly and politely approach the new Head of Diversity in advance, and make the following points:

i) there is a widespread debate ongoing about gender issues and how they interact with other protected characteristics (link perhaps to Spectator as suggested above).

ii) Susie G is a controversial figure who does not come from a background of diversity professionalism or policy training, but she simply speaks from her own experience and as such, it is not clear what she has to offer a workplace event such as this one. If anecdotal accounts and personal life stories are being welcomed, you can suggest some other voices to be heard.

iii) ^^ who has been consulted within the company prior to this new 'transitioning at work' policy being drawn up and ask if women were consulted and what kind of risk assessment was done, and of course does it comply with the Equalities Act. This.

OldCrone · 01/11/2018 12:26

I agree with Needmoresleep - ask questions from the point of view of someone who doesn't know much about the transgender issue. Asking about crossdressers is good, because most people still think that 'transgender' means people who have physically transitioned or are intending to. And sport is a good way to get the interest of men - they want to protect their daughters, and most people don't like cheats.

Ereshkigal · 01/11/2018 12:24

she's there in a professional capacity, hold her to it. Half the problem with this nonsense is the over reliance on emotional flimflam. Brass tacks. What does this mean practically in the workplace and will it contravene equality legislation? Etc. That'd be my approach.

YY. Ask her how practically to balance competing rights of women Nd girls. She'll inevitably respond with something emotive.

Charliethefeminist · 01/11/2018 12:21

Can you ask which women's advocacy groups were consulted? It seems unfair if they weren't.

R0wantrees · 01/11/2018 12:18

Your employee might be encouraged to read this article by James Kirkup in The Spectator:
1 May 2018
Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?

(extract)
"As it happens, Dr Carmichael in her lecture said some things that seem relevant here:

“Gender has become amazingly topical and we have to be really careful not to assume that anyone is exploring or questioning their gender is going to want to change their bodies in line with that. The extremes on either side are not helpful. We need to look at the grey areas in between. To do that we need to be able to talk and discuss these issues. All too often stakeholders become lobby groups.”

She did not name any stakeholder. But her words might be relevant to a charity called Mermaids. Mermaids is a charity that describes itself as “a support group for children and young people with gender dysphoria and their families”. Its CEO, Susie Green describes herself as “parent to a daughter who was born male.” Mermaids is a relatively small charity (it had income of £127,000 in the year to March 2017) with a big reach. It has prominent backers and its advice and recommendations have been absorbed and adopted by many public bodies.

Some people in the gender debate say harsh and critical things about Mermaids. I am not doing so here. My suggestion is that Green, having had her own family experience of transgender issues, has decided to devote herself to charitable work in the hope of offering what she believes as help to others who need it. The same is true of several others who work or volunteer at Mermaids. Read this for a moving account of how devoted some parents are to Mermaids for their help.

Despite its influence, it is worth noting what Mermaids is not. It is not a research body. Its activities are support (for families) and advocacy: based on its contacts with those families, it argues for what it sees are better policies and practices by the NHS and others. It does not carry out or commission clinical or academic research. Its most recent annual report lists among its charitable activities “campaigning and advocacy” and says: “Mermaids has also become more active in lobbying”.

There is regular dialogue between Mermaids and the GIDS, but the two sides do not always agree. An example is on the time the GIDS team take to give referred children the hormone-blocking drugs that stop their bodies developing the physical characteristics associated with their birth sex.

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

Perhaps also a more recent one which was lead piece in recent edition:
'Trans rights have gone wrong
The new gender orthodoxy allows no room for dissent'
(extract)
"Others groups include Mermaids and the Gender Identity Research & Education Society, both frequently consulted by councils, NHS trusts, police forces and Whitehall departments for guidance on applying the law around transgender children. Both are tiny charities run not by lawyers but by parents whose children changed gender; it’s hard to think of another field of policy where personal experience is prioritised over objective expertise.

According to Michael Biggs, an Oxford University sociologist, the speed at which transgender rights advocates have advanced their cause is unprecedented in western history. In less than a decade, he suggests, the movement has embedded itself in public and corporate life and often succeeded in changing policy and practice without significant scrutiny or question.

How? Stonewall is the biggest exponent of the argument that trans rights are the new gay rights, and that conflation of gay and trans is key to the trans lobbyists’ power, especially in the public and voluntary sectors, where allegations of intolerance can end careers. The CEO of a major charity, a woman who has worked at board level in FTSE 100 companies, recently told me she was simply ‘too scared to speak publicly’ about her fear that the systematic misapplication of equality laws is eroding women’s rights and safeguarding rules. Being called a bigot might cost her her job, she says." (continues)

www.spectator.co.uk/2018/10/trans-rights-have-gone-wrong/

FloralBunting · 01/11/2018 12:17

I would avoid any element of the personal. Far too much credence has been given to the woman based on personal decisions she made about her child.

If she's there in a professional capacity, hold her to it. Half the problem with this nonsense is the over reliance on emotional flimflam. Brass tacks. What does this mean practically in the workplace and will it contravene equality legislation? Etc. That'd be my approach.

RiverTam · 01/11/2018 12:15

I would ask who has been consulted within the company prior to this new 'transitioning at work' policy being drawn up and ask if women were consulted and what kind of risk assessment was done, and of course does it comply with the Equalities Act. I would also draw attention to Stonewall's very broad definition of 'trans'. But I would address that to the HoD before this meeting. I would probably avoid the event with Susie Green.

Needmoresleep · 01/11/2018 12:09
  1. Act naive and ask about the difference between sex and gender, especially if she has conflated the two, so hopefully others will end up confused as well.
  1. Ask her her views on sport. This is the one thing that men really understand. They don't want their daughters put at risk on the sports field by having to play against large male bodied people.
  1. Ask if, in the light of her experiences and fight with the NHS, whether NHS policies have changed? If not why not? Or do people ever want to detransition. What proportion? What happens? What is the research?
  1. Ask what transgender encompases. Someone told you it included cross-dressers as well as those with dysphoria. Is that true?

In short no need to disagree with her. Simply act interested and see how she responds. Lots in the room with be sympathetic to those with gender dysphoria, as many are on this board, its the self ID that is the problem. (As is the idea of having a child castrated, but I guess she will just use the "dead child" argument.)

SonEtLumiere · 01/11/2018 12:09

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Blanketbox · 01/11/2018 12:07

If so, you can ask more pointed qs about safeguarding

senua · 01/11/2018 12:07

The new "transitioning at work" policy will also be launched the same day.

It sounds like you have to intervene before the event, before they write the policy. What is the company's definition of transgender - does it comply with current law, does it involve a GRC?

Blanketbox · 01/11/2018 12:07

And of course keep an eye out for stereotyping so you can challenge. All this is perfectly professional and ought to be fine at work. Personal comments about SG less so! Also, has she been invited because your work relates to kids?

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