My employer has invited Susie Green for a transgender inclusion event

I completely agree that the focus should be on women's rights, protection and dignity at work.

What benefits do mixed sex (don't let them try any gender neutral bollocks) have for women?
Have Andrew Gilligan's Times Article to hand which states that most sexual assaults take place in mixed sex spaces.

If we are talking business, I'd also have the Philip Bunce story up my sleeve for multiple arguments. How is he marginalised? Are cross dressers included? Say you're confused.

What are the plans re toilets? Surely it's easier to widen the bandwith for men. Make their toilets accessible for all.

We have mixed sex toilets at work and I don't go OP. Men leave seats up, piss over the floor, don't use toilet brushes and pee with door open. The toilets stink.

Stonewall and Mermaids love to roll out faux suicide stats out for young trans people. Have the GIDS figures to hand and say the 48 per cent figure quoted has been debunked.

Following on from this I would ask questions about the level of consultation that has been done with men to check that they have no issues with sharing their toilet space with women. I actually suspect that many of them may feel uncomfortable about this and they probably haven't been asked either.

It wasn’t that long ago on here that there were some good threads on here about the hooha about the problems that the change to mixed sex loos had had at the Foreign Office. Would definitely be worth digging out the threads and newspaper articles because there were all sorts of issues that those who introduced the change hadn’t anticipated including things like men not bothering to shut the door when having a pee, seats being left up, loos being left in a much yukkier condition than when just used by women, etc etc - nothing to do with trans, just the day to day differences that both sides hated.

The threads had links to similar examples. Plus there’s the Walmart study that found a significant increase in voyeurism etc

So have them to hand and maybe give to the head of diversity in advance - ‘so they can include strategies to ensure that none of these issues arise here (partly it means big changes in loo behaviour especially for men because they are not used to loos being such private places in the same way women do because they are used to using urinals. And urinals also don’t require such accurate aim. Etc etc)

Maybe also get her to clarify her terms before starting because you’re aware how they are bandied around so inaccurately and have led to confusion - so for example what her definition of a woman is - biological or ‘feeling like’ and why do transwomen have to be women, why can they not be transwomen? Oh and remember to point out that using ciswomen is incredibly demeaning and offensive to use when they should be using women.

I have been mulling this over and have decided that my stratagem would be to hardly engage with the trans part, assuming that your office doesn't have signficant numbers, if any people who wish to live their lives in a different gender to their natal sex. The whole thing smacks of virtue signalling.
I would focus very much on ensuring that sufficient regard is made for issues around sex, so managing periods, washing out mooncups etc. The right to single sex spaces enabling women of minority religions to access loos, what specific provision will be made for them to ensure they aren't loosing access to bathroom facilities.
So,we all want to be supportive of trans rights but we need to ensure that other vulnerable minorities aren't accidentally and illegally left excluded. Let's talk about how you are going to protect them if you are making changes.

I'd have to bite my tongue bt allow the following out.

1. what qualifications and experience does she have, can you read any peer reviewed articles?

2. the equality act allows for discrimination on sex, this is because women as a sex are vulnerable and one place we are most vulnerable is when ussing the toilet. You understand that trans people may also be vulnerable eg if a man is having a period he may not be catred for adequately in the gent's toilet. If you have no one at work currently transitioning then surly the policy should be to discuss arangements when you have an employee who is, as different people have different needs. This is the approach you would take with a dissabled employee, or with an employee who becomes pregnant so why should trans be any different?

3. what do they think of the Karen White case? do not let them say that Karen is a man, Karen is, by stonewall's definition a trans women. If a trans woman assaults someone in your workplace how would it be handled? Transgender women have the same hormones, stregnth and violent criminal behaviour patterns as men.

4. As a feminist I want to see the end of gender stereotypes, how does / would a policy about transgender employees/customers impact on that.

Could any local GC Mumsnetters stage a polite, calm demonstration outside your building with placards and invite the local press to come and interview them re Mermaids? Could be an excellent way of spinning the event and raising questions about SG.

In the days running up to the event you could quietly leave FPFW leaflets on everyone's desks and stuck to the back of doors in women's lavatories. I guess this would take guts but only you can know how monitored your workplace is and what the consequences might be for you.

On the day question any suggestion of policy change. Ask whether there has been an impact assessment carried out prior to any suggested changes: how would any change of policy affect the women (particularly minority ethnic women) and disabled people? If no impact assessment, why not?

Question, question, question — not from an anti-trans pov but from a pro-women one. Nothing against people dressing or presenting as they wish but you don't want anything that would impinge on women's protected rights under the EA, particularly private space...

Can you find one or two other GC people who would second you? Once you get three people standing up saying no, IME it gives others the courage to do likewise.

Yes indeed - malign advice from Bespin and highly revealing too.

then I can work to address them

Bespin, how about you accept that these are the views of some women that single sex, not single gender, is what remains necessary and work out how not to impinge on them?

It is indeed very telling how Bespin charges OP with wanting to change things. Talk about the old narcisstic adage of accusations being admissions...

if your Truely want to change things you will need to state your views.

Bespin You seem to be forgetting that the OP doesn't want to change things. She wants to keep the single sex toilets. What we are fighting for is for others not to make major changes without consulting us or even considering that we may be negatively affected by such changes.

If you want to change society it is up to you to prove that your changes will not adversely affect the rest of us - the majority.

That was supposed to be a grin emoji under that copied post, my emojis seem variable. It might be back by the time I've posted this and then I'll look even more stupid.

Explain that you've been taking an interest in football and diy recently and how does she suggest you proceed.



adulthumanandtired pointing out that sex is a protected characteristic under the Equality Act 2010 and gender is not (only gender reassignment is, and not even that trumps sex) can hardly be a career threatening move.
This idea that the Equality Act 2010 is somehow meaningless and saying it isn‘t risks Job loss, just because stonewall and mermaids don‘t like it, is patently absurd.

I'd ask why a controversial charity (with links to a discredited doctor) that lobbies for trans children is (being paid for) addressing a business.

I'd ask how much they were paying and who decided that this was a good use of company money. Have they been told that they need to do this? Have they been told lies about the law (very common)?

OP in all seriousness if you rely on your income and career, be very, very careful what you say. We are not safe to speak openly about these matters.

Bespin how exactly would you “work to address them”? Would you try to understand her concerns or are you thinking more about “re-education”?

please OP go to the event, and make your views known on this subject. I would support you 100% on doing that don't hold back on it state your beleifs. if your Truely want to change things you will need to state your views. I am tired of people being on here telling people they should do something but then in reality not, I'd rather face this head on if I worked with you i would want to know your views because then I can work to address them.

Really excellent suggestions here.
However, while I totally agree with the emphasis on women of various faith backgrounds who require same sex facilities, I am glad the needs of women as women (menstruating, miscarrying) have been mentioned. Women do biological things in toilets that men do not.

I am also glad that women who have suffered sexual trauma, assault or rape have been mentioned. I left my marriage (coercive control and sexual abuse/rape) and honestly, there were times when I could not cope with the conflict in meetings and needed to use the bathrooms as a safe space to recover my composure.

But more importantly, for me, the link with sexual assault/rape/abuse is the erosion and violation of consent. Women have the legal right to say no to having their bodily intergrity violated. Where do the boundaries around women’s bodies begin and end? We are moving from a position where you could put a solid door (the bathroom) and a cubicle around you to go to the loo in public space and be assured of privacy from male-bodied people, to one where you have just a wall which may not go floor to ceiling, and the bathroom (often small or narrow) is shared.

So the space around women, which helped maintain bodily integrity and dignity, and the ability to move in public space is shrinking - for all women, regardless of religion, past reproductive or abuse history. Any and all women should be able to say no to this, without fear, or needing to come up with extra reasons.

Where I work, they have added in ‘gender neutral’ toilets whilst retaining same sex ones. On one floor, they have used the female bathrooms for this. Elsewhere, they have merged the previous male and female bathrooms into one space with individual cubicles - hate these ones. But there are also same sex bathrooms, so there are a mix of options (and more same sex, to be honest). So I feel that the balance is about right and I just avoid the ones I don’t like.

You could raise one question to Susie Green: "How will you feel in ten years time when your adult child resents you for allowing her to have puberty blockers at an age where she was not competent to make such life changing decisions". Then sit down and take the applause.

Personally I'd go off sick on that day.

Why does Susie Green and Mermaids champion a doctor who has been disciplined over unethical practice. I believe Helen Webberley is due to find out the latest punishment tomorrow.

How much checking to Stonewall and Mermaids and what's going on there, is there?

To whom are they really accountable in any meaningful sense?

Arranging to take your kid abroad for medical treatment not allowed in the UK, is not someone we should be putting on a pedestal as a hero.

yes, you might ask exactly how much DIY would indicate a need to transition

thing is you don't know what is going to be said so I think you need a few different options prepared
I think asking what is included as TG is a good possibility (follow up question- so what about cross dressers?)
be prepared to challenge the suicide myth if that is talked about
practise talking about what happens in toilets... all the blood and guts
also, consider that SG may have read this

Explain that you've been taking an interest in football and diy recently and how does she suggest you proceed.

Lots of good advice here, I'm not sure which one would work best for your coworkers. Sounds like your new boss is very TransKoolAid so you'd have to tread carefully there. I would start talking to your coworkers, and expose them to gender critical thought.

This is where it's important to determine, which of all the gender critical arguments are the most effective at quickly persuading people to at least listen to additional arguments with an open mind. The first argument you use needs to be so good that they won't immediately shout you down as a "bigot" and stick their fingers in their ears.

I personally always start with the one about sexual boundaries -- women have the right to set our own sexual boundaries and this includes who I disrobe in front of and who I allow to disrobe in front of me. I am VERY precise in my language and VERY confident in my body language when using this argument, I am NOT waffling my speech, or shuffling around as if I'm still not sure if daddy has given me permission to have these thoughts .

The other one you need to use for sure, since Suzie is huge on emotional manipulation, is pointing out that the suicide stats she uses are completely wrong.

ONE PERCENT!!

ww.thetimes.co.uk/article/suicides-should-never-be-a-political-weapon-w0jlhn5v0 by Janice Turner
Suicide is a dark trope in the trans movement. Parents who hesitate over medical intervention are told by some activists: “Better a living daughter than a dead son.” The ITV drama Butterfly, an infomercial for the trans support group Mermaids, is based upon the story of its CEO Susie Green, who took her child to Thailand for genital surgery at 16 (which was illegal in Britain and is now illegal in Thailand) and features a graphic suicide attempt. Mermaids cites high suicide rates in trans youth to push for faster, younger access to hormones and surgery. Ms Green told MPs that Gids (the NHS’s youth gender identity development service) has a suicide attempt rate of 48 per cent. This was based upon a self-selecting sample of 27 trans people aged under 26 analysed by the LGBT charity Pace.

The sane, compassionate response is more research. Let’s pull out the serious case reviews of every teen suicide to examine all possible causes, including newspaper reporting. Surely Mermaids would welcome proper, independent methodologically-sound scientific inquiry. In the meantime, the most reliable source is Gids which says of 5,000 young patients referred between 2016 and August this year, there were three suicides and four attempts. Each death is the deepest tragedy, yet this makes a suicide rate of less than 1 per cent. Moreover, Gids director Dr Polly Carmichael has warned that suicidal discourse is “quite unhelpful”, creating a narrative around gender-diverse children “imbued with negativity and lack of resilience.”

As an excuse to dripfeed this idea into their heads, the next day I'd give everyone a printed copy of that. Also include this bit:

people who have had transition surgery are 19 times more likely than average to die by suicide. journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0016885

You could also include this one if you feel it's safe (ie that they wont' try to murder you on the spot). Tbh though, once they do lose their shit they look pretty insane and then most bystanders experience peaktrans, so honestly it's a good thing.

TIES TO PEDOPHELIA

www.cambridge.org/core/services/aop-cambridge-
core/content/view/6B5F217162ABD9B3189F2EB82787034E/S1758320900012695a.pdf/gender_reassignment_5_years_of_referrals_in_oxfordshire.

In Oxfordshire, over a 5 year up to 2010, out of 38 males, a small number of these males approached the NHS gender transition services;"seeking gender reassignment to facilitate or normalise paedophilia. This latter small group described gender reassignment as a means by which to increase their intimate contact with children, which they viewed to be more socially acceptable in a female role"