Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Am I being sexist? Anyone able to help explain my thoughts..?

35 replies

Smashingnicey · 01/11/2018 08:29

Having a really tricky time at the moment. Over the last few weeks (but particularly this week) I have been repeatedly let down professionally and also personally by colleagues, relatives and my DH. This has resulted in me being forced to take on additional work I am not qualified for, working extremely long hours, under huge and very public stress, with very public consequences should the work not be perfect. There have been obvious knock on consequences for my health as well as me having to reduce my time with my children (they have been plugged into electronics the entire week).
I've been thinking about why this has happened, how I can prevent it happening again etc. It's just occurred to me that in all these instances it has been men who have let me down. I'm talking about 7 or 8 different men. I HAVE had a little support from 2 men (but only in an incidental /protecting their own interests way) and 3 or 4 women who know what's happening have been helpful too. I work in a traditional, fairly patriarchal male dominated environment and I'm a woman with 'visible' children (I am often seen by my colleagues with them as I live close to my work).
I feel I have become resentful towards these men for putting themselves first, for refusing to help with situations that THEY have created, for forcing me to effectively clear up after their incompetence and for not helping when I KNOW they have the capacity to do so.
It just feels like I'm wobbling around at the top of a ladder asking for help and they're having coffee looking up my skirt and smirking while I sweat.

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
witchmountain · 02/11/2018 13:31

OP your plan might be right for you on this occasion, but I hope you don't mind me observing that it sounds a little bit like "I'm going to carry on as usual". You can carry on as usual, it's entirely up to you, but nothing will change if you do - the same goes for your marriage.

I can't imagine doing this to someone else. No, but you are in effect now doing it to yourself, so you need to figure out how to that yourself with the same respect you afford to others. Can you imagine what you would do if someone who reported to you told you they were having chest pains and self harming?

Flowers though, on top of the work drama it sounds as though you are bit overwhelmed by the realisation of how you are fitting in with everyone else. You might find a coach useful. It is hard to learn a different way to be.

CottonTailRabbit · 02/11/2018 09:22

Are you scared of kicking up a fuss?

I'm not sure I have the strategies or even phrasing in place to "push back" in a way that would be fruitful.

Are you doing that female socialised thing of only taking action if you are 100% sure you will be successful and that everyone involved will come away thinking nice things about you?

Screw that. Get stroppy. Give no fucks if people get pissed off with you. Right now you have chosen to take time from your children rather than kick off at work. Which smells of fear.

It's your bosses that should be crapping themselves. They should be tripping over themselves to make sure you don't walk from the job because you are so pissed off at this situation. Probably because they don't feel there's any risk of that. They don't have to do anything. You'll sort it all out. Screw that. Make sure they know their project is at risk of you walking or going off sick.

Your DH knows about being a bit selfish right? While that's a problem for you in your personal life, you could ask his advice on how to handle this work problem, including what attitude you need to display. He may have useful insights.

quixote9 · 02/11/2018 02:58

"I've NEVER been anything but helpful, hardworking, pleasant and good at my job and the unjustness of this situation is making me wonder whether misogyny is at the root of it."

I was in a similar situation once upon a time. I'm still not sure, after all these years, whether there was explicit misogyny. To me that means "hatred of women." I doubt they did hate women. It was more like female people didn't exist. So when they stepped on your neck, it didn't matter. No(real)body was hurt.

What was my solution? There was none. I left the job at enormous personal cost.

I hope your situation has a better outcome!

Italiangreyhound · 02/11/2018 00:19

Can you not hold these guys to account?

"Resigning would be extremely difficult from practical perspectives and I just can't get my head around the "fuck them and resign" idea because that's what they've done to me and I do care about everyone else involved in this."

I you do resign look into suing for constructive dismissal. Your supervisors/their supervisors are failing you.

"I'm not sure I have the strategies or even phrasing in place to "push back" in a way that would be fruitful." If you have the time and money, look into some assertiveness training. You sound very capable in your job but like you do not value your own time, or efforts and you still kind of want to let these guys get away with it. I'm not sure why you have to do everything. Do as much as you need to, of course, but why do you need to do it all?

Italiangreyhound · 02/11/2018 00:13

"They just know I am the one who will open the box in public to find nothing there so unless I find SOMETHING to put inside then there will be nothing there on the day. "

Who is supervising you, will they not want to know why nothing is in your box?

"They have been told directly that this is causing stress to several colleagues but still do nothing!"

Someone else is allowing this to happen. They sound like prize jerks but someone else is allowing them to be!

"I've NEVER been anything but helpful, hardworking, pleasant and good at my job and the unjustness of this situation is making me wonder whether misogyny is at the root of it."

It may be but if the tables were turned and you were a guy and the other two were women, I would still be on your side!!

CottonTailRabbit · 01/11/2018 22:46

When you realise you've been too nice you tend to see it in all areas of your life and it can seem overwhelming.

As you learn how to value your own space and time then you'll find it easier and easier to push back. Right now you don't take yourself seriously enough as the star attraction, you've been acting like the background enabler/runner for the real stars.

When you start acting like you are equally or more important than others things will change. Some people will react badly. Most will react well after some initial growing pains / confusion at the change.

The Reality Slap or The Happiness Trap (same author) are both great books for helping to getting your head straight.

Reality Slap is best when something awful / traumatic has happened. Happiness Trap best when you've got a general sense of I'm desperately unhappy but I've got no good reason to be unhappy.

Smashingnicey · 01/11/2018 22:32

Thank you - so my plan is to power through in a kind of "shit or get off the pot" way. Something will happen, I've been able to make some headway but whether it will work I don't know. If I flick the switches and no light comes on then time will not stop. It won't be forever and I will have to cope with the fallout and try not to cry .
Resigning would be extremely difficult from practical perspectives and I just can't get my head around the "fuck them and resign" idea because that's what they've done to me and I do care about everyone else involved in this.
I'm not sure how I will deal with the feelings I have about these men. I think it will affect me for a long time. My relationship with my DH is generally good but bumpy because I am opening my mind to how far I have altered my life to ensure his life remains the same. Being let down by him at this time is a double whammy and I guess each situation magnifies the other.
I'm not sure I have the strategies or even phrasing in place to "push back" in a way that would be fruitful. I will look at Five Dysfunctions of a Team.
I am glad I posted here though and thank you to all the contributors.

OP posts:
witchmountain · 01/11/2018 21:54

It sounds like absolutely ineffective management (by your seniors) is at the root of it!

But it is a bit like when people come one here and ask why their husband is so useless whilst they enable it. You don’t have to be the one to rescue it. It doesn’t sound like it’s your responsibility to rescue it. It sounds like your colleagues have a very different relationship with work compared to you.

How are you thinking you could tackle the situation now, after reading the various bits of advice above?

CottonTail’s book recommendation is a good one.

Gncq · 01/11/2018 21:54

^emover = employer

Gncq · 01/11/2018 21:52

the unjustness of this situation is making me wonder whether misogyny is at the root of it

Men are not afraid to be total cunts and they often get away with being total cunts.
Women are held to a higher standard so if you had behaved like person A or person B you'd probably have gotten the sack already. Misogyny is part of the problem but male privilege is another part.

The situation that it's all down to you and no one else is being held accountable has made me think if I were you I'd just fuck them and resign. Obviously I understand this has practicalities that are unrealistic for you. Surely your credentials could lead you to a better emover?

CottonTailRabbit · 01/11/2018 21:46

Maybe it is misogyny.

Just as likely that they think you are a pushover and are taking the piss because they can though. They give no shits about other people's stress. They do not have issues with being people pleasers.

Some people are nasty lazy cocks.

Some people love feeling powerful by screwing others over like this if they can. Totally get off on it. There is a certain type of technical male very prone to this in my experience. Inadequate twats with incel leanings.

It's your standard cowardly bullying.

They are not scared of you. They are smirking at you. Get your fight on woman!

Even if it is too late to avoid doing all the work, make damn sure you kick the shit out of them. No more soppy nicey nicey lady. They play nice, you play nice. They try to bully you, you push back hard.

Don't waste any more time pondering the patriarchy. Fight the battle in front of you. Ponder later.

Smashingnicey · 01/11/2018 21:28

I am a senior manager but not the big boss. None of the technical staff report to me although A is in the same team as me and paid more than me because of his technical capabilities.
I guess they haven't actually forced me to do the work. They just know I am the one who will open the box in public to find nothing there so unless I find SOMETHING to put inside then there will be nothing there on the day.
I can't imagine doing this to someone else. It's beyond my understanding. If I can help someone out I will. I hate seeing people suffer and would never stand by and watch failure. They have been told directly that this is causing stress to several colleagues but still do nothing!
I've NEVER been anything but helpful, hardworking, pleasant and good at my job and the unjustness of this situation is making me wonder whether misogyny is at the root of it.

OP posts:
Italiangreyhound · 01/11/2018 20:59

"I feel I have become resentful towards these men for putting themselves first"

That is because you might have been socialised to put yourself last and they might have been socilaised to put themselves first.

Are you responsible for their work/supervisor etc? If so, how can they say no? If not, then tell the person who told you to tell them, that they said no. IYSWIM. (and their supervisor if that is a different person).

Are you worried about getting them into trouble? if so, why?

"...for refusing to help with situations that THEY have created..." Who can you tell that they have cocked up?

"...for forcing me to effectively clear up after their incompetence..." Are they forcing you or do they just not care if it fails? If they do not care, should they be in those jobs?

"...and for not helping when I KNOW they have the capacity to do so."

But it's not really 'helping' if it was their job in the first place.

I think that you need to take your kids and their visibility, and your biological sex, out of the equation, I do think these situations are probably sexist, but you need to take that out of the equation too, IMHO.

They have stuffed up so how will their boss make them make it right and if they cannot make it right, who else can - someone who is not you!

"It just feels like I'm wobbling around at the top of a ladder asking for help and they're having coffee looking up my skirt and smirking while I sweat."

It feels like that because maybe that is actually how it is. By looking up your skirt do you perceive a threat from them or do you mean they are laughing at your situation?

I think you need to put that in professional language to them and to whomever supervises them. IMHO.

Good luck Thanks

CottonTailRabbit · 01/11/2018 20:46

Power through to the end. Then make it your number one goal to get the lazy nasty fuckers out of their jobs or to get a new job yourself.

Also, if you are a senior person then you should be looking to have really strong disagreements with people early in your project. Not smoothing over (aka hiding) deficiencies and poor behaviours. That's not helpful in a leader. Read The Five Dysfunctions Of A Team. I think every senior manager should read it, especially women.

Smashingnicey · 01/11/2018 20:14

@ILuvBirdsEye - that was brilliant and gave me the first laugh I have had in weeks!!! Not Teresa May no - although the parallels are definitely there in some respects!
Thanks for the advice here. Yes I know the sexism isn't the main issue here - that's true - but in addition to the stress I have these fairly powerful feelings of anger and I just cannot judge whether I am directing them fairly or not! I'm not one for moaning or creating an atmosphere but I am fantasizing about those water cooler moments where I let it all out!
@LouiseCollins28 - I have been a bit vague so as not to out myself or the rest of the cabinet but yes it would be reputational damage to the company, me and important community stakeholders. A&B have technical roles. I do not. A has not completed his technical role and has gone on planned non medical leave. A has not left anything in the way of handover notes,files, advice or arranged for cover, he is not responding to emails and is vague on the telephone. B is technically capable of doing As role and used to do the role hinself. However B regularly sabotages work for A (and me) in a difficult to prove way, sort of passive aggresively or by doing nothing at all. B has also enjoyed being paid for his role when actually A has done the work for it. B has also been, in my opinion, dangerously negligent in strategic aspects of this role previously; although is very capable on a day to day basis.
I have been forced to step in because we literally cannot find anyone else to perform this technical role by learning it as fast as possible, me pairing it down and experimentation. It's hugely stressful.
@CottonTailRabbit - yes I have spent too much time trying to smooth things over with A&B and being the diplomat. I have definitely been screwed over deliberately because B especially wants to see me fail.

OP posts:
ohello · 01/11/2018 20:09

Every word that Cottonntail said. It is really important that they are the ones who are hit first and harder than you are, and that you notice from the very beginning that they are actively trying for every project, for you to be the fall guy. You must put the kabosh on that. Also, a more basic problem is...

a woman is being dumped on and she both initially and mid-stream accepts the extra burden -- and then she wonders if SHE is the one who is sexist!

Sure we can all clutch our pearls and fling up our hands and say, "gosh more female socialization, guess there's nothing I can do about it!!" OR, you could practice re-wiring your brain, by practicing on smaller situations where you can say, "no" -- and then close your mouth. No excuses for why you can't, no justifications why you can't be their servant one more time, no nothing. Just pretend that your no is the end of the conversation, and since that IS the end of the convo, then of course it's now time to talk about something else without a hint of shame or wiggleface as if you're not sure daddy will take your no seriously.

BettyDuMonde · 01/11/2018 17:36

Get signed off of work for 2 weeks for stress and the self harming thing.

See what happens next.

Look for a less toxic-to-you workplace?

LouiseCollins28 · 01/11/2018 17:02

My first thought is that this is a problem for your manager to help you solve. (assuming you have one and are not the most senior person in whichever organisation it is yourself)

"let down professionally" could mean just about anything, without knowing what you've expected these folks A & B to do that they apparently haven't, it's hard to judge.

Reputational damage to who? To you? To your company? Are you the face of this particular project?

CottonTailRabbit · 01/11/2018 11:22

On the feminiist front I have observed that women can be too worried about being liked and building comfortable relationships at the start of a project. Then they get screwed over.

Yeah maybe the guys will push back hard and say you are a bitch and moan about you when you make the briefs/terms/kpis/reporting structure/whatever be different to put more risk on them if it goes wrong. They'll appeal to you to be nice, say they'll be nice, it'll never happen etc etc. Yeah yeah, then they won't mind taking the risk on their backs then will they?

In summary, worry less about being liked and being nice at the start.

CottonTailRabbit · 01/11/2018 11:16

Lesson for the future here. Next time you make sure the work is structured so that other people's failures hits them harder than it hits you. I know it's difficult but it is always possible.

The other guys did a really good job of structuring the work so all the risk fell on you. Next time get that fixed at the outset. Remember the pain of their failure must hit them harder and sooner than it would hit you so they are motivated to clean their own mess.

witchmountain · 01/11/2018 09:20

Btw, are you Theresa May? Halloween Grin

ILuvBirdsEye · 01/11/2018 09:15

Btw, are you Theresa May?

EverardDigby · 01/11/2018 09:14

What's the role of your manager and the men's manager? (Are they the same person?)

witchmountain · 01/11/2018 09:13

With regard to whether you are being sexist, I don’t think that’s really the main issue here!

If you generalise based on your experience of a few men then yes, that would be sexist. Maybe think more about how you have been socialised to believe you are single handedly responsible for delivering something for your community whatever it takes out of you, whilst the men seem to have a firmer view of their own boundaries - you might find some sexism there!

FusionChefGeoff · 01/11/2018 09:12

Start doing some arse covering in preparation for you saying 'no'

Get it in writing how everything has gone wrong and the fact you have asked HR and these individuals for help and they have refused,

Clearly set out consequences of you saying 'no' and give a breakdown of what you see as a suitable solution. Give a deadline for solution to take effect

Then, with your arse in tact, step back.

Swipe left for the next trending thread