Jordan Peterson Interview with Helen Lewis

Ouch Julia just patronised me. I shall flounce off.

Prep Often Enough? Is what my iPad changed prepotence to.

Self Righteousness Event Horizon

If only I could think of what to name the area in the middle!

Insufferable?

Julia, if you would be kind enough to explain gestalt to me
I would had you not all the worlds knowledge at your fingertips via google

I think that it’s only recently that a large number of people have received any kind of education. Men have been valued as workers because of their value as unskilled manual labourers and as leaders because of their ability to fight.

Women can’t compete with that, and are restricted by pregnancy and caring for high maintenance small humans.

However, arguably more men than women have struggled to cope as industry has shifted away from manual labour.

‘Professional’ jobs are a very recent invention.

His basic thesis (if I understand it correctly) is that society is not shaped by the patriarchy but by competence.

I have been teaching STEM courses at university for many years and I can honestly say that what differentiated the average male student from the average female student was not a surplus of competence but a surplus of prepotence.

A factor that I think might be overlooked (?) when it comes to the question of why society historically formed in a way that gives males all the power (patriarchy) is that women's life spans were generally rather short and unpredictable, due to child birth. So society could not really bank on them and it, therefore, made way more sense to invest into the education and career of men. Sure, war could kill off men, but my impression is that - at least in the old days when wars were waged with axes and swords - the risk of death on the battle field paled compared to the slaughter that child birth was, no?

:) re the Venn diagram

Julia, if you would be kind enough to explain gestalt to me I would be grateful. I used to pretend to understand it long ago at Uni (but did not).
"Tells young men to grow up because he is appealing to the strict fatherhood morality gestalt....In other words it aligns with authoritarianism, which aligns with patriarchy"

On the subject of non-woke smart men, I was listening to Crowder from "Louder with Crowder" talk about men ("what kind of a man do you want to be?")_and I was impressed because he (i) acknowledged the patriarchy and (ii) said he was happy with it because it fits with his religious world view. Apparently he believes that after death when he is judged he will be held to account for everything that occurs in his household.

This left me in the odd position of reflecting that I would much prefer a spirited debate with Crowder than with my fellow-guardian-reading men because Crowder is not in denial.... strange times.

I'm sure there is a single word.

If only I could think of what to name the area in the middle!

Self Righteousness Event Horizon

Beards may feature too.

I'm sure there's a venn diagram that can be drawn with male people who identify as transgender, males who espouse left wing politics, males who are vegan. If only I could think of what to name the area in the middle!

I'll second the experience of vegan men being self-rightious controlling pricks. Just had to share residential accommodation with one and he was a right woke nobber that didn't feel moved to contribute to the shared duties - while looking down his nose at women people.

Some of it could be biological, but obviously there's a lot of conditioning that takes place during formative years.

And which parent is more likely to be doing that conditioning from an early age?

In other words it aligns with authoritarianism, which aligns with patriarchy

Tells young men to grow up because he is appealing to the strict fatherhood morality gestalt

Margaret Atwood has a brain the size of a planet but Jordan Peterson fan club members do not so it's very easy for him to discredit her with a short put down

I quite like it when he tells young men to grow up and not be self-pitying.

But Margaret Attwood has a brain the size of a planet. I would have thought he could spot that.

He's a modern day Rasputin

Might be worth splitting off a thread for the meat & patriarchy topic - it really horrified me and I'd like to discuss it more.

Look at the covers of magazines for girls and the ones for boys. Which magazines do you think are more likely to have content about auto care, electronics, gadgets, and other useful info-- from a fun perspective?

Boys are taught at early ages to have interests that will help them career-wise, while girls are taught to be obsessed with beauty, fashion, and playing with dolls. Then later in life people assume it's a biological thing when men and women choose different paths. Some of it could be biological, but obviously there's a lot of conditioning that takes place during formative years.

All the vegan men I've ever known are difficult controlling wankers, so not sure how that fits in

Haven't seen that particular interview but I think JBP is an interesting example of how, right now, we find ourselves on the side of some people on some issues and against them on others (and it's often surprising to see who you're lined up with and against).

I seem to remember Posie went to hear him speak and had her photo taken with him too so MN opinion is divided over him too.

Women are chaos and men eat meat
That's the message isn't it?

Not a had a chance to watch it but I find it amazing that otherwise intelligent people just think men are clever at science and women are good at babies because, reasons.

If that were the case then why are the numbers specific to the culture you live in and why do more women become scientists every year on year (same with stay at home dads). Nothing to do with the fact that the culture and laws change to make it easier for this to happen? Have women suddenly over the last 50 years evolved to do better at science, men just picked up the multi tasking gene?