Peak GC Moment?

You were much more polite than me Avegemite.

I felt the opposite watching the India and Posie debate. India has previously been very vocal against 'transgenderism', self ID, Pip Bunce etc. India has agreed on twitter with Ricky Gervais against transwomen in women's sport, seemingly having no problem with publicly agreeing with someone who has been forthright to say the least on issues like Karen White. So India was being pretty disengenuous anyway with the views expressed in that interview.

The demure, gentle act was also a bit laughable since I'm sure most of us can remember India screaming aggressively in a woman's face on Big Brother and I can certainly remember some of the utterly vile things she has said about other transwomen (referring to one as a dog on a leash).

At least Posie is consistent.

I'm either doing a really bad job at explaining myself (again - likely!) or it's just not ok to question this here.

I think it’s definitely OK - I’m not reading anyone saying you can’t question it. Just trying to get to the bottom of what your discomfort stems from.

I think I understand what you are saying - you are GC but worried about whose “side” you have ended up on. I think posters are seeing that but responding to say look at the facts - women don’t have penises is not an offensive statement.

That stupid little cunt Ben Shapiro doesn't think humans can change sex either.

Does that mean I'm going to start thinking that men can become women, that males should have access to female spaces, or that children should be given fuck knows what so that they can 'transition'? Just so I'm not aligned with BS on anything? No, no I'm not.

Interesting that the 'offensive' thing you took from that This Morning interview was Posie Parker not being kind enough to IW, and not Eammon Holmes alluding to it being OK for a man to intimately search a woman if that man identifies as a woman.

Crickey was that the interview where eamonn Holmes stated that a woman should not be able to say no to a person with a penis putting their fingers inside their vagina. Posie was the least of my worries I must say.

I am GC and feel strongly about it. I am also so tired of the debate. I think that in some places, particularly where there is a bit of an echo chamber effect, the tone of the conversation can become unproductive, even when I fully agree with the arguments being put forth. Sometimes when GC people question the high rates of suicide and violence against trans populations, it is done in kind of a sneering tone that makes me wince. I don't like the minimisation of suffering for anyone. I think we need to make sure that the focus always comes back to toxic masculinity and male violence and how this affects anyone who does not present as 'masculine' (women, children, gay men, trans women, goths, what have you) and what we do to safeguard everyone at risk.

I can see how it can happen though. I think the trouble is that it is very difficult to argue your point with people who give every appearance of giving not one single shit about your own rights and safety, and show no willingness to discuss and negotiate a complex social and legal problem, without the rage and frustration getting on top of you and causing you to sink to a similar level of discourse.

I didn’t see the interview but I think it’s interestung you object to the GC stance because Posie is GC and you found her to be rude. Is this because women (the real ones with cervixes and vulvas etc) are not supposed to be rude or mouthy or belligerent, even when faced with awful male toxity - and rudeness in spadefuls, to say the least.
Interesting.

Came on to say that interview gave me a bit of a wobble but pp put it much better than I could have done
I felt uncomfortable. I felt someone new to the topic might just see PP as unkind. However I agree with what she’s saying. Men can’t become women, no matter how strongly the feel. So I grew some ovaries and continued to support her, despite my mild discomfort.
I felt exactly the same, my wobble was, with hindsight, more frustration at the possible way things would be perceived by people new to the topic.

Perhaps you’re just feeling discomfort at women not being nice OP? Female socialisation is very hard to budge. Women being angry, disrespectful, unflinching and stern can be very hard to watch. I love PP’s give-no-fucks approach, but I’m old enough to realise that keeping the peace isn’t the only game in town. I think speaking the truth is more important than being nice, not everyone feels the same.

But not every person here believes the same things. You can be concerned about safe-guarding in the context of self-ID, but dislike PP’s version of activism, that’s your choice.

What do you believe the issues of concern? That’s where you want to put your energies.

I think the use of the internet exagerates the divide. It means that there is always something to be offended at. Whether that is a GC woman casting doubt on a TRA having PTSD as opposed to just being a bit sulky, or a TRA trying to get a GC woman fired, this is unfolding in real time, with fresh drama available from hour to hour for any who want to join a dogpile. This debate is incredibly tribal.

That said, I see a lot of misogyny on the TRA side with comments of "fuck off Terfs" and "see the manager" haircuts rife. On the other side, I do not see any GC women trying to get people fired, or their work blacklisted. I do not see any GC death threats, or rape threats, or threats of violence. I have never seen a GC woman actually post "fuck off", though I'm sure its probably happened. I don't see any homophobia from the GC crowd, or even transphobia - provided you do not think that Women Don't Have Penises is an insult. The worst I see from the GC side is an eagerness (and sometimes over eagerness) to see TRAs slip on banana skins of their own making. I have to be honest, I love a good bit of schadenfreude myself, when the suffering is self inflicted.

I find that Venn Diagram, showing how the views of right wingers, GCs and TRAs intersect to be very useful in showing why we find ourselves with such "strange bedfellows".

The thread’s been reinstated very quickly OP - clearly they’re not doubting you, so don’t worry.

For me, the peaking moment was the interview with India and Posie. I felt very uncomfortable with how offensive and discriminatory Posie's argument was. And really, it just came across as hateful.

What was hateful about that interview was a man telling a woman she wasn't entitled to define her own boundaries. Now that was offensive.

Something I am more concerned about is the effect all this will have on trans kids. I am sure they really do believe that they can change sex because that is the lie they have been fed by every adult and person in authority.

Absolutely this. The future these poor children are facing is horrific.

I personally couldn't have said what P9sie said to India's face (although I 100% agree with her) because I'm conditioned as a woman to be nice to people to the detriment of my own self interest.

And I don't want to have to have this ridiculous battle on my hands. I'm astounded it has come to this. Another struggle for women's rights. FFS.

Women are discriminated against because of our unique biology not our gender identity.

I sort of understand what you are saying. For women like me, who are always 'oh I could never hurt anyone's feelings' 'we must be kind and nice', Posie is the one taking it on the chin for us. She has had so much shit thrown at her, that you have to admire her determination.

I thought I did not agree with her on a lot of things, but then read the little bio thing, and found that we actually had loads in common. Except she will go out there and fight, I am more of a supporter than a fighter, although I am GC at work, I have hounded my MP with emails (even though she doesn't seem to give a shit). Posie is the one who speaks for all of us, and yes 'bloody women do not have a penis' is the start and end point for me. Transwomen are Transwomen, and should be able to live however the hell they want, until they want my spaces, my name or my right to talk about my body and experiences of being a woman. Then they can fuck right off.

That interview made me uncomfortable as it was very skewed. Instead of discussing the problems with self-ID and penises in women’s spaces, it was deliberately framed to look like Posie was being horrible to India. India had also stated previously that self -ID wasn’t good, so the position taken when Posie was there was disingenuous or worse.

Yes, I felt uncomfortable. I felt someone new to the topic might just see PP as unkind. However I agree with what she’s saying. Men can’t become women, no matter how strongly the feel. So I grew some ovaries and continued to support her, despite my mild discomfort.

meh

if you don't like what Posie Parker is saying, ignore her

There's lots of other people making BC arguments:

Nic Williams
Kathleen Stock
Rosa Freedman
Hadley Freeman
Graham Linnehan
James Kirkup
Ruth Serwotka

or one of the many, many other interesting people who make interesting and valid arguments on this

What exactly are you struggling with?
The argument or how many times it has been used?

TRAs aren't using a "you should respect that we don't conform to gender stereotypes".
They're using a "we prefer to conform to gender stereotypes of the other sex, so we must be seen as the other sex".

It is being forgotten that for the most part men and women don't feel like whatever sex for any other reason than their sexual organs.
I certainly don't.

I have had moments of doubt, when tribal identity has kicked in and I wonder why I’m on the other side to the guardian, BBC, etc. But the truth is, the premise that they’re selling, that trans rights come before all else and women have to dismantle their boundaries, I’m not buying, and it makes me even more fearful that women are being badly let down by people and organisations who would consider themselves champions on the being-kind-to-everyone front. It’s their illiberalism that has fostered this toxic, authoritarian landscape and they’ve shown clearly how little they value women’s rights.