Woman's hour today (29 October) 10 am

I agree. That was far better than I was expecting.

The reasons for the huge increase in girls with gender confusion/dysphoria are obviously very complex. A few obvious areas to investigate:

1. Ten years ago when there were 40 or 50 girls a year being referred to GIDS at the Tavistock, were there hundreds more being looked after by their local CAMHS? In other words, is part of the increase in numbers a result of extra funding for this area, making it possible for more children to get specialist treatment?

1. There's been a huge increase in recent years in the number of children diagnosed as being on the autistic spectrum. It took a long time for clinicians to start diagnosing girls because it presents differently but the numbers there are rising too. Given the link between being on the spectrum and experienced gender confusion, what's behind the increase in diagnoses? Is it a case of giving a name to something that went undiagnosed before, or got a different label, which would imply there always were this number of people on the spectrum, we just didn't have that label? Or is it the case that there has been a genuine increase in incidence of the condition? If the latter were to be true, you'd expect an increase in the incidence of gender dysphoria too.

1. Effect of the internet - social media and online porn. We know young people, and especially girls, have a higher rate of mental health problems than used to be the case. (Although there again, is that true or is just that there's less stigma/more awareness so more come forward?) Given the highly gendered nature of much of what girls are exposed to on social media (Instagram filters, horrific stuff done to women, sexting etc etc) is there any way of demonstrating a causal link with the huge increase in girls reporting gender dysphoria?

1. Social contagion. We know it exists. It's always existed. I can't see why it couldn't have a role here, especially now it's so easy for ideas and images to spread all across the world via the internet.

1. Lack of role models for girls just starting to think they might be lesbians. I'm not a lesbian or an expert on this by any means, but I've seen it stated often by people who are that there used to be more in the way of local groups a young woman could go to.

1. Increased gender stereotyping, affecting children from birth onwards - clothes (colour, style, slogans, fabric choice), hairstyles, shoes, toys, books, expectations of how they will behave and about their likely life path, gendered language etc etc etc. In some ways it's worse now than it was when I was young. There wasn't anything like as much expectation of immaculate grooming back then (thank god).

Probably lots more, but that's where I'd start.

Polly Carmichael was a bit patronising. She could have emphasised more the difficulty that rigid stereotypes cause - she said we need to be tolerant of diverse gender expression - this is NOT what is being preached in schools by Allsorts etc.

All three of them said that rigid gender stereotypes were a problem. How hard is it to get from there to see that the solution is more tolerance of diversity, rather than medical transition so that people fit in their gendered boxes?

I think Woman's Hour is to be applauded for hosting the discussion and for not allowing the discourse to be dominated by accusations of transphobia and general wokeness.

Its worth being aware that GIDS is currently under considerable attack by parents from Mermaids and many prominant TRAs for its 'watchful waiting' approach.

This has become quite intense recently.

twitter link to discussion about the program:
twitter.com/BBCWomansHour/status/1056803331098714114

Interview with Stephanie Arai Davies:

Lecture by Dr Polly Carmichael: 'Developments and dilemmas'
soundcloud.com/user-664361280/dr-polly-carmichael-developments-and-dilemmas

Discussed by James Kirkup: 'Why are some MPs trying to shut down the transgender debate?'
(extract)
"In her thoughtful hour-long lecture, Dr Carmichael said this:

“The rapid rise in the number of assigned females…. exemplifies the importance of keeping discourse open and allowing different voices to be heard.

“You might say the increase in the numbers of assigned females coming forward is [because] that it’s easier for females to talk about their gender-diverse feelings so what we are seeing is an increase in awareness getting towards a better representation of the true prevalence of this among females.

“A converse explanation, a question: are there issues for young women around how they perceive their gender? There has been a worry by some that people who would previously have had an outcome around sexuality are now having an outcome around gender.”

(In other words, these are girls who do not readily identify with the predominant idea of femininity and are sexually attracted to biological females, and who would, a decade or two ago, have grown up to consider themselves lesbians.) Dr Carmichael’s conclusion:

“The truth is we don’t know, but we need discussion in order to be thinking about what this could mean.”

Just in case that’s not clear, let me sum it up: the country’s leading centre for the care of gender-variant children says its caseload has risen more than twentyfold (35 times for girls) in less than a decade. The head of that centre doesn’t know why that’s happened and says the question needs further discussion." (continues)

Despite its influence, it is worth noting what Mermaids is not. It is not a research body. Its activities are support (for families) and advocacy: based on its contacts with those families, it argues for what it sees are better policies and practices by the NHS and others. It does not carry out or commission clinical or academic research. Its most recent annual report lists among its charitable activities “campaigning and advocacy” and says: “Mermaids has also become more active in lobbying”.

There is regular dialogue between Mermaids and the GIDS, but the two sides do not always agree. An example is on the time the GIDS team take to give referred children the hormone-blocking drugs that stop their bodies developing the physical characteristics associated with their birth sex.

In evidence to another Commons inquiry in 2015, Mermaids argued that GIDS should make such drugs available much more quickly. The GIDS team has generally resisted that call, more than once saying that “any decision around hormone treatment needs time and considered thought.”

And in evidence to that earlier committee, Dr Bernadette Wren of the GIDS said this:

“I know that Susie and Mermaids would like a fast track so that young people who are already well into puberty and feel that they know that they want to move forward into physical intervention would bypass our assessment process and move straight into physical intervention. We feel that is not an ethical way to practise.”

Here’s another summary. A transgender charity that says it is engaged in lobbying lobbied politicians and doctors to change the way children are treated by doctors. The doctors declined to make that change because it would be not be ethical to do so." (continues)

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/why-are-some-mps-trying-to-shut-down-the-transgender-debate/

Just listened on catch up.

Thought it was quite revealing tbh

Despite the very cautious phrasing and the constant "we must be careful" it still very obviously came down to stereo types. It almost sounded as if she was slowly figuring it out as she desperately tried to phrase things to avoid makimg them.sound based on stereo types but couldbt ...

She pretty much backed every thing up that Stephanie was discussing.

Lewis seemed unnecessary but did help the cause a bit really because he basically confessed to stereotyping himself even though he denied it originally

There was a study about puberty blockers linked to in the tweets - and it did seem to confirm that puberty blockers aren't the sterilising risk I've seen claimed on here. But the study did recommend stopping at age 12 for optimal adult height and bone density.
When used for trans kids - is the difference the age used, dosage or what?

Now WH need to explore the fate of young adults women (and men) being sterilised by adult gender clinics.

Yes.

Polly Carmichael was a bit patronising. She could have emphasised more the difficulty that rigid stereotypes cause - she said we need to be tolerant of diverse gender expression - this is NOT what is being preached in schools by Allsorts etc.

Good to hear Stephanie Davies-Arai. It is a pity that she has no academic or medical qualifications, or direct experience - but that is the nub of the problem - who else can speak out?

Any medical professional who is concerned about the huge rise in girls presenting with GD dare not speak out.
Parents of teenagers with GD dare not speak out.
Academics wanting to research the phenomenon are silenced.

Now WH need to explore the fate of young adults women (and men) being sterilised by adult gender clinics.

It was heartening that the discussion was civilised and that Jane Garvey really upped her game.

The transman, Lewis Hancox, seemed to be saying that - while he was attracted to women - sexual attraction in itself does not make someone want to transition. This was in response to JG's question about whether he might have been happy being a lesbian rather than a transman.

The words Lewis used to describe his feelings about growing up with a female body did not entirely convince me.

Lewis speaks for himself of course and we can't do anything but take his words at face value - but I find it odd that the way he speaks about knowing he was not a female, despite being born one, is so similar to every other trans person who is linked to Stonewall. Call me old fashioned, but there does seem to be a bit of a pattern there.

Polly Carmichael's attitude worries me. Especially her lack of robust and critical thinking about the role mental health might play in gender dysphoric feelings.

Like a pp said, she doesn't seem to be able to - or want to - join up the dots.

I've just listened again, carefully. What struck me was how dismissive PC is, and how unquestioning. She's supposed to be an expert, but doesn't seem interested.

Yes, the official policy is that the cross sex hormones are 16+. Now shall we reference Dr Webberley at this stage, or wait until later?

Polly Carmichael is normally quite balanced in what she says, although I haven't heard her on any broadcast for about a year, and a lot has changed in coverage and perception of these issues since then. I do appreciate she and the Tavi are in a very difficult position - they don't want to alienate the families of children with GD, as it's better for them to be treated by the Tavi than private clinics, but quite rightly insist on being responsible clinicians too. They get attacked a fair bit for 'withholding' treatments. It's must be very hard to navigate.

This is what occured to me.
The roles offered to girls these days in terms of feminine identity are restrictive, unobtainable, intimidating or jsut don't make sense to them in reference to themselves and what they see themselves as.
The response to this is to reject the feminine and "feel" masculine which perhaps offers more opportunites to be oneself....
Apologies if this is garbled, but thats what was going through my mind as I listened. The transman did or didn't make clear whether they were attracted to me or women. I don't know if that was addressed.
If it is the case that the rise in transgender females is a reaction to the hyper feminine stereotype that pervades society it might explain things but perhaps not all.
Any help greatly appreciated.

Well that tweet from Transmasculine makes sense. . Going on the pill at 13 definitely damages a girls body in the same way as puberty blockers do girls and boys bodies 🙄. This in no way comparable. The penis will remain at prebuescent size and the gonads will remain undescended thus making the boy insterile and unable to reproduce. Ditto the uterus and ovaries. But tots comparable to a girl going on the pill. Yup!

And now R4 has a programme about the PhD industry; this may answer questions re Aisha’s qualifications...

The figures for the number of children on the autistic spectrum or those having other mental health disorders came from the Tavistock but PC didn't have the figures to hand.

Yes, on a more serious note I'd like the stats.

Do you think Dr Aisha has a PhD or an MD? Asking for a friend.

Why on earth would anyone want their ex back?

JG was good, she pushed for answers.

It was good to hear someone question statements instead of accepting everything hook, line and sinker.
And insist on statistics and data instead of feelz.

Impressed with Jane G - she did well. Tried to stick to facts & I like what she said about co-existing mental health issues ringing alarm bells.

I was really put off by Polly laughing in the background.

Fabulous spam

Can you make the gender dysphoric children happy in their own bodies please aisha?