Woman's hour today (29 October) 10 am

I can’t find a link to today’s program, can anyone provide it? Thank you!

I do realise how little I know about this subject from the medical end

That should make you an ideal person to contribute as there seem to be there are very few medically trained people in the 'gender industry' Almost all those 'Doctors' contributing, including Polly Carmichael are Phds not medical Doctors.

I thought it was extremely well done.

So strange though to hear so much agreement about gender stereotyping and the world we live in being so 'binary' these days and yet still there are so many advocating trying to change individuals rather than the toxic environment

I think it's one of those observations that's hidden in plain sight but actually incredibly astute.

I'm glad someone else sees it that way Charliethefeminist.

In other words, the only way to discuss this is in terms that the trans person present would approve of.

Nauticant: that's incredibly important. Can't discuss trans frankly without trans people present as that is 'exclusive'. Can't discuss trans frankly with a trans person with a trans person present because that's upsetting for them. Catch 22. I think it's been exploited. Not today so much. But previously.

I really don't get how preventing a child from maturing can be expected to help them make a more mature decision.

(I do realise how little I know about this subject from the medical end.)

However, she was then sent on her way for something like 18 months, with no support, no therapy - just advice to contact the local CAMHS which had no resource to help her.

Which is when naturally parents and children seek out support from groups such as Mermaids or look online.

HRT is deliberately misleading (ie you are replacing the hormones you body was supposed to get at birth), and sounds benign, when it is not.

There was a poster on here a few months ago. Her child was prescribed puberty blockers by the Tavi. However, she was then sent on her way for something like 18 months, with no support, no therapy - just advice to contact the local CAMHS which had no resource to help her. Exactly how does that buy time?

I did wonder how, with having a FtM person involved in the discussion, they could frankly discuss matters that could be considered to be critical of their choice/journey. But on the other hand, that would suggest discussions being had that exclude trans people which doesn't feel right. Part of the difficulty is that there are people in that community who come across as vulnerable and people are nervous about saying things that could cause them to be upset.

So much is obscured by language.

Talk of 'T' or HRT (its not replacing hormones) prevents people from acknowledging that we know the impact of people taking testosterone over a period of time.

In other situations this would be discussed as steroid abuse.
Anyone who has done drug training is aware of the associated long term side-effects.

The thing that's rarely discussed is the effect of testosterone on female bodies.

Your comments are so important Vivarium. No where in today's discussion did they get to grips with the actual physical reality of life as a transitioned female to male.

But if we can't discuss that then people just won't understand what is at stake.

It's just doesn't seem sensible to swap your long term health for a bit of wispy beard to me.

I think that just about sums it up.

Polly not poll
Fuqsake

Poll not poll

Poll is on record at the Westminster Forum on Trans Equality on June 4 that media and social media have had an impact on gender waiting lists. 'We try to remain neutral and its hard'. Also on record acknowledging high comorbidity with ASD. 'Less than half those presenting at Tavi go for physical interventions'.

'Some will express themselves differently over time'. 'We should support gender diverse people so we give them more timr'.

I also listened to Polly Carmichael with a sense of disquiet. She did not seem to be especially frank and her approach to the discussion was to shoot down points raised by her opponent. One thing missing from her was a sense of "we need to push for high quality objective research into these areas". I can't help but feel that she is content for her organisation to operate in a grey area of inconclusive research and to be balanced between competing pressures. It just seems very passive to me.

The discussion around puberty blockers never fails to annoy me. Apparently, they are supposed to buy time to decide. But if just about everyone on puberty blockers goes onto cross sex hormones, supposedly because they've all been correctly diagnosed, then this bought time doesn't seem to have much point.

The thing that's rarely discussed is the effect of testosterone on female bodies. Many transmen are self medicating - which is really dangerous.

They will all have vaginal atrophy, which usually happens after menopause. It's sore, itchy and very uncomfortable, so, those transmen who seek help will get a local oestrogen pessary.

Buck Angel, the front page buff transman nearly died because his vaginal atrophy meant the whole thing sealed up. He was still producing stuff from his cervix, so that got infected, he went septic and nearly died.

There's also an icreased risk of heart disease and the bone health issues.

It's just doesn't seem sensible to swap your long term health for a bit of wispy beard to me.

These people need proper advice, but, the specialist clinicians are thin on the ground (Hardly surprising, who'd want to work in this hot potato of a field with no definitive diagnosis or objectivity? See that GP who was prescribing online and has just been convicted of being a bit silly, forget her name, woman in Wales) and waiting lists are long. So, they are advising each other.

There's going to be a real health crisis in this population in 15 years.

It's really bloody scary.

Using puberty blockers to delay early onset puberty is a totally different use to using them to avoid going through puberty altogether which is how they are used for children who believe they have dysphoria.

It was irresponsible of Carmichael to keep saying they are reversible because no one stops the process once they go on them. So we don't know what happens if you take them until 18 and never go onto sex hormones.

You can contact Woman's Hour here:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b007qlvb/contact

If they get a load of messages telling them well done it'll help support the GC women who've probably had to fight like hell to get this aired.

Just NCd.
My Twitter comment was read out! I shall listen after work.

ABitCrapper - There was a study about puberty blockers linked to in the tweets - and it did seem to confirm that puberty blockers aren't the sterilising risk I've seen claimed on here. But the study did recommend stopping at age 12 for optimal adult height and bone density.
When used for trans kids - is the difference the age used, dosage or what?

The sterilisation risk is because almost all who start puberty blockers then progress to cross sex hormones. They never develop mature gametes so can't even store eggs or sperm.

The age makes a huge difference too. Children placed on puberty blockers for gender dysphoria start at around the age of 12 and stay on until 16 - it's one thing delaying a very early puberty, quite another not going through puberty at all.

There are a lot of reports from women who have taken these drugs for precocious puberty or endometriosis of serious, long term side effects including osteoporosis, joint problems and mental health issues.

So 'balance' means interrupting Davis-Arai before she is able to complete any point, then letting Carmichael (Tavistock) or Lewis (from transsexual summer) go on until they exhausted everything they want to say.

I can well imagine, ARose.

Lack of role models for girls just starting to think they might be lesbians. I'm not a lesbian or an expert on this by any means, but I've seen it stated often by people who are that there used to be more in the way of local groups a young woman could go to.

If the local lesbian society included loud shouty males, that would have put me off as a shy teenager.

I thought this was bloody fantastic! Both in comparison to the mainstream coverage we've had before, and as a piece that took its time, gave everyone fair time to speak, and largely was a civil and sane discussion.

I think Jane Garvey is deffo GC.

Polly Carmichael didn't come across as especially extreme, but I did feel she was being very dismissive of perfectly justifiable concerns. I did think, as others have pointed out, that her points were riddled with contradictions. She is not joining up the dots, indeed.

Stephanie A-D did well. And yes, it was good to hear from Lewis (Luis?). One thing I kept on muttering about was that even if the Tavistock are balanced in their approach with the children they see, those children have often already been exposed to very unbalanced views and organisations at a local level.