Medical doctors who believe trans women are women.

oldcrone you are correct. The study was done on adults. I need to find the article and grab the bit about why they concluded this was from birth (trans brains being different).

It was a small scale study and actually I thought interesting. Gender disphoria is real.
It still doesn't make them anything but trans people.

I am a Dr who is gender critical. However, I would not state this publicly as the GMC do not agree with me.

ConorMcGregorsChin I'm about to book a similar appointment with my own GP. I think I'll book a double appointment in the hope I'm listened to and not just flung a script to the call of "Next".

I have a medical professional in my own extended family (specialist). In the 18 months from when DS1 was born they only referred to him as "the baby" never by his name. I could actually give many more examples of how difficult it is to interact on a personal level with them, but won't for fear of giving away too much identifying info.

They are actually a lovely person I do wonder if medical training forces them to have what I guess is a social disconnect.

One wonders if they paid any attention at all during anatomy, genetics, or physiology lectures in first year at medical school!
Joking aside, there are doctors qualifying now who have done degrees with so few contact hours their knowledge of anatomy is actually in question. Many courses with less than ten contact hours per week.

I’m a retired doctor, and over my 36 years of practice I saw a definite, worrying trend away from critical thinking and initiative, towards blind obedience to memorised treatment protocols and tick box checklists.
When teaching medical students in the operating theatre, I made them work things out themselves from first principles, and it was lovely to see them light up and become animated, enjoying using their brains at last!

Somewhat scary as certain reference ranges (haemoglobin at least) are different for men and women. Not medical enough to know what others there are (or how testosterone/puberty blockers might affect it) but certainly a risk of things getting missed using the "wrong/right" ranges...

I am a doctor and I don't believe TWAW. I have been radicalised by mumsnet but would never have believed the more extreme activist claims anyway.

I think that there is a strong pressure to be seen as a supportive and inclusive person as a doctor. This especially afflicts female doctors as you'd expect.

There is also some genuine and well founded fear of opinions on this issue hampering your career. The profession overall isn't that aware and generally considers that the specialists know best. The BMJ has been appalling for publishing uncritical transfluff stuff and there has been no attempt to examine the ethics.

Most of us also have contact with some dysphoric trans patients who are often extremely vulnerable so I think doctors are often thinking of them and their difficulties when it comes to this debate. The autogynaephiles don't come in to see us announcing their fetish - they know what to say to tick the boxes and get a referral.

Absolutely agree with PPs that not all doctors are very bright or natural critical thinkers. I think once you have laid out all the issues and concerns almost all get it and are worried by the situation though.

I suspect (hope?) they probably believe TWAW means transwomen should be treated the same as women/as if they are women in legal and social situations. I sincerely hope they don’t in clinical situations otherwise there’s going to be some very poor medicine going on.

There is a local school that has a lot of leavers going to medical school. They are lovely students, but have been aiming for medical school from at least the age of 11. They and their families' focus is on doing what is necessary to get a place. Which means a very narrow focus and little awareness of life beyond school and studying.

Some studies of trans women (old school transsexuals) show a part their brain to be different from non disphoric people.... seemingly from birth... but not actually the sex they identify with.

The studies on transgender people have been done on older children and adults, so there is no proof of anything being different from birth.

I've seen this situation, also. It's very troubling. VERY. Because I think doctors should be shouting from the rooftops that sex and gender identity are not the same thing, and we cannot change sex.
Some personal hypotheses:

1. Official policies for doctors basically say trans women are women- I think you could get in serious trouble for questioning the mantra
2. Lots of doctors share a similar kind of political philosophy ("lefty" Guardian types so want to be seen as "progressive")
3. They don't think it has anything to do with them, so they haven't thought deeply about the issues
4. They're doing an old-school "doctor knows best" paternalistic thing in somewhere internally acknowledging that sex and gender are different, but just say to lay people that "sex is too complicated" - see for example Dr Webberley saying that sex is tricky, but later that there's two types of bodies..... Which is SEX.
5. They might know but don't want to get into the political nightmare that is this "debate"

What i don't understand is:
I don't think the "woman brain / man brain" thing has been proven ? The top two Google hits contradict each other.
Obviously over time hormones and socialisation would effect the brain but surely this is different from individual to individual?

Some studies of trans women (old school transsexuals) show a part their brain to be different from non disphoric people.... seemingly from birth... but not actually the sex they identify with.

Essentially we need lots more research into this area.

It would be great if that could occur with out insane bullying.

Is it something in the nature of people who go into medicine or does the system discourage analytical thought or have I just been unlucky?

I do think it is the process as @borntobequiet said. At my uni all medics, dentists, and scientists did the same first year. The medics all arrived armed with their excellent a’level results. It rapidly became clear that the majority were very good at sitting down and rote learning a syllabus, and passing subsequent exams. So to start the a’level requirements selects those who can learn and regurgitate without questioning what they have been fed.

When we did do critical thinking exercises they just couldn’t do it. They were given a paper, they could learn it and tell you about it, they just couldn’t see that just because it was written down and had some logic didn’t mean it was correct.

Also the dr hierachy means you don’t question your seniors. They are right. End of. Medicine is at the end of science where mostly the discovery has been done. Years of lab work and experimentation and they are handed the end product in a syringe and told it cures x disease. They don’t study the in vitro work or the clinical trial results and think that if a b or c was changed the results may change too...

I’ve written a number of academic references for prospective medics. The ones who gained entry to medical school were by no means always the ones who would make the best doctors. And a number of people who would have made excellent doctors slipped on one grade/didn’t do so well on interview and didn’t make it, despite being easily academically able enough.

I will have to ask my doctor for a prostate exam and see how she reacts. I don't believe many or any of them really believe TWAW, but they're probably terrified of the transborg.

Transactivists will go to any links to cause trouble, even making plausible sounding accusations up out of thin air. Or getting all their friends to make appointments and then pulling a no-show. And of course, leaving horrible reviews everywhere.

"The existence of God can't be proved or disproved, and is therefore a matter of faith. The physical differences between men and women, however, are readily apparent."

That doesn't matter if your belief is that 'woman' is a feeling.

"I have no idea how he is in a caring profession. "

He isn't though, is he. He went into it for the reputation and money. Not because he wanted to care for people, that's maybe what he tells others.

Although, amusingly and somewhat surprisingly, the wikipedia entry for the word "woman" has been written by someone who has not drunk the Kool Aid. I suspect it was written before "TWAW!!" existed. How long will it be before it gets heavily modified to include people with normal XY chromosomes ×/- penises and feelz?

One in a practice of 6

Sorry derailed thread with previous post.

But on the Dr’s front my GP was about 6, and one asked if I could be taken on his patient. I refuse to see any the others as I’ve noticed the different attitudes in treatment.

My Dr is bloody amazing and worth the 20-30min delay in appointment, cos only one not dismissive, listens and talks to like I’m human giving me A B options, not pushing me out door with handful of pills to make world right.

I assume this is about language. Their proper medical word for people with ovaries and XX chromosomes is probably "female". The word "woman" is likely just viewed as some fluffy, malleable, whatever- you- want- it- to - mean layperson's word that carries no scientific or legal standing.

It seems that, in 2018 the word "woman" is to the word "female" pretty much what the expression "down there/noo-noo/hooha" is to the word "vagina". The word "woman" as a descriptor has lost its power.

You won't find many scientists who believe it...

The existence of God can't be proved or disproved, and is therefore a matter of faith. The physical differences between men and women, however, are readily apparent.

One of my relatives is a doctor and really does lack critical thinking skills. Also a complete misogynist and displays complete contempt for women - I have no idea how he is in a caring profession.

I did send him the consultation to fill in, with a message that as a doctor surely he could see that TWAW is wrong. I got back a long rant that the trans movement is the result of feminism - the type of comment you regularly see on the DM website.

There was a thread on MN not to long ago about doctors not knowing the difference between type 1 and type 2 diabetes. This is kinda crucial when advising patients how to manage their condition. Cos giving them the wrong info could kill someone.

So in the context of seeing that eye opener, over two very common medical conditions, I'd like to tell you I'm shocked that two doctors can't tell the difference between men and women, but I'm not.

I'd just hope I didn't have this misfortune to be treated by them.

Homopathy was hailed by many doctors for years too. Some still believe its effective rather than a load of bollocks and the placebo effect, albeit expensive sugar pills.

I would be worried about how they are defining 'women'.

Even if they don't think 'woman' is a medical term, what are the qualities that they think men have that women don't? Why do they think there are still so many more male than female MPs.

'TWAW' isn't just problematic medically, it also implies complete ignorance of the reasons that women have been denied an education and the right to vote. Who do they think is affected when women can't access birth control?

raisins Every time I see mention of Haddock I think of Julie tweet to reference of dickhead 😂

I only see mention of dickhead if it comes up on my twitter timeline.

Is this same uni as the self indulgent selfie two that got someone dismissed? Or prof one.

I’d be pissed as a parent if I was funding my little darlings at Uni! Also if was my DD I’d be asking for refund to pay loans back, fuck paying for education, who going to replace them now