Another Woman Hounded Out of Employment...

i’m sorry none of those seem like tells to me? in fact the opposite?

1. most upper artist kids don’t need to study art at uni because of nepotism will bankroll their career

1. if they weren’t working class and their parents were rich wouldn’t they just be living in some flat paid by their parents?

1. being “self employed” means nothing, also they have a page of their expenses on their website which doesn’t seem to be a lot (like most people who work in the arts) and also have a patreon where people give them money also? if they were rich wouldn’t they just ask mummy and daddy to fund them?

1. think about how parents in the past have gotten racist/homophobic etc. teachers fired and this is very comparable to that - most people don’t think about whether those teachers have to survive they just don’t want them to be teaching their child etc.

1. isn’t all criticism just talking shit about people online/in real life etc?

what a superb summary take down of them, Joan, I salute you.

Do you know what some of the tells are xlvx?

The white pubes studied fine art (tell) in London (tell) then moved back in to their mums houses, where they spend their time talking shit online (tell) belittling the work of working (tell) artists and curators. Yet the white pubes have no fear of this 'self employment' venture failing (tell), no fear of their needing employment in the future (tell), and no fear of the impact of what they are doing on their current families (tell) or potential children (tell).

They think that writing shit online about people qualifies as "art criticism" (tell) and assume they are entitled to be listened to (tell) no matter what they say and how incomprehensibly they say it. And in return for their unbelievably bad writing they are rewarded with favourable coverage in The Guardian (TELLTELLTELL).

That's just a summary of the most obvious info out there about them. Actually reading their crap it is like a bell ringing constantly dingdingdingdingding

In my experience when people often have to clarify that they’re “an actual actual working class woman” they’re usually not. So Joan are you actually a working class woman?

I don't know anything about Joan beyond information which she shares here. I can't hear her spoken voice and I don't know her background. I don't see any objection to her stating what she has to clarify the point she is making.

Hit a nerve I reckon.

Yes xlvx I actually am :)

Unlike the women from the white pube.

I see on the AART Facebook page there are loads of students on there who say they were at the meeting & slandering Nina. They seem to be in full breach of their social media policy, as is posted on this thread further down.

Is it possible for a third party, with no links to the uni or anyone else to complain, ie. any or us, to complain or is that just silly?

In my experience

Welcome to Mumsnet! Unless this is a NC?

It might be courteous for you to conduct an AS on the poster's name (in this case, Joan) to glean whether or not that is a question that needs clarification judging by the member's posting history.

In my experience when people often have to clarify that they’re “an actual actual working class woman” they’re usually not. So Joan are you actually a working class woman?

I was at uni (a pretty prestigious RG uni, for context) with someone like this, she lived almost as though she was homeless, squatting etc, always looking unwashed and grubby, but I happened to see her home address one day and realised she lived just round the corner from me, in an extremely middle-class affluent suburb. She was Asian with green hair too, weirdly enough - this is nearly 30 years ago, so they couldn't be less original if they tried!

I've just been reading a couple of interviews the white pube have done. My conclusion (as an actual working class woman) is that the pair of them are fakers. They're doing a horrible parody of working class young voices, which they are able to get away with and get noticed for precisely because they are not working class.

This is what rags like the Guardian do when they want a working class voice - they find someone they can relate to from their own class but who adopts a mask made of shitty stereotypes about wc people. Then they hold it up as an authentic wc voice and act like they are more grounded and authentic (or 'cool') themselves as a result of the trick. It's a way of continuing to speak over us and not let go of any of their privileges - they can hire their own kids and their kids mates, but pretend they are enabling diversity.

So yeh, from what I read of their own work and interviews this morning, my conclusion is that the white pube are the 'art critic' equivalent of posh boys adopting cockney accents.

I can't help noticing that the white pube started their shtick slumming it pretending to be Common People while the pair of them were studying at (Central) Saint Martins. This at least has given me chuckles.

I support this journalist trying to report this, because journalism is important and the campus will be awash with rumour and slander. User, you need to get Nina to trust you. Do you have control of the story? What will happen in the editing? Will it come out of your hands? Will the headline be written by you? Reassure her that you have control of the story and can ensure true balance, and perhaps she'll talk to you (Nb don't lie!)

User, if you publicly tweet that women don't have penises, she may trust you more

Is the fulcrum if this around whether Nina is transphobic or not? Or whether free opinions, free expression are necessary for art to flourish?

Nina is an artist. How can art flourish or be valid where there is curtailment of free speech ? She shouldn’t be put on journalistic trial as a transphobe (I do not believe she is), the threat to her right to free speech should be put on trial!

A student leaked it on the Artists Against Transphobia FB. Doesn’t say much but of course getting all ‘denying our existence’ bollocks.

I do think the White Pube pair are floundering, they sound increasingly unhinged. I don’t suppose they’ve ever received such a backlash before.

User - I don't know if you are being biased or not. This is an anonymous forum.

I do know that it appears a lot of went on is being kept private. And therefore Nina is in a unique position to know. That's all, really.

I'm attempting to do that by showcasing the @welshstreets tweets, leaving it to the reader to decide whether it's fair to judge Nina as transphobic. I was also attempting to find some voices in Liverpool that support Nina to provide balance. If you disapprove of me writing on this topic then so be it, but I'm trying so hard to avoid it being biased. (And actually, I'm on Nina's side, I walked out of a seminar after being branded transphobic for opposing Self ID, so I do understand at least a little bit).

I'm not sure how you can represent both sides 'fairly and accurately' without her input.

And she doesn't appear to want to give you her input. At least for now.

@Datun Have emailed her on her university website address and the one available on her website. I have also tweeted her. I have received no response - and I don't want to harass her. I will email her the story as it stands before it's published to give her further opportunity to respond. I don't want to be unfair to her, but I do feel it's a story that needs reporting on.

user1471442281

Have you tried asking Nina?

Hi all, I'm a student journalist at LJMU currently writing a piece about what's happened to Nina. However, I'm severely lacking gender critical voices - I'm a big time mumsnet lurker so I know here is the place to find some! If you're from Liverpool, and especially if you're an activist or work in education, I would be very grateful to hear from you. Sorry if I'm being a CF for butting into the discussion with my request, but I'm trying my hardest to write something that clearly represents both sides fairly and accurately. If you'd like to give me a statement on your perspective of the events please email me at [email protected]. Again, sorry for this, but I'd be really appreciative if anyone could help!

Fuck me, they’re not the sharpest are they? Can they not see the irony in their actions.