Zuzanna Mroz in The Spectator

No, I would not. To accept Buck would, by extension, be to accept any man. And the only way to distinguish would quite literally be 'genital inspection'. Now, I'm not sure you'd want to promote that as a policy. Buck can pass in the gents, therefore Buck can use the gents.

lass. The arguments aren't the same. Most men do not have the same reaction to a woman, transwoman or trans-man in their midst. They may feel uncomfortable but it's unlikely that they feel any kind of threat.

Which can't be said for the women's facility.

It's apples and oranges, not apples and apples.

Or, plums.

But it seems a lot of MTF believe they pass. I have come across males in RL who seem to believe it.

This seems to me to be very much part of the problem. In that autogynephilia does seem to present a delusion, in the eye of the beholder, as it were.

From what I have read, part and parcel of being aroused by their own reflection is the, quite natural in this case, assumption that they look hot (to themselves).

It comes as a severe shock, and something to be denied, that other people do not view them in the same way.

No, I wouldn't have to accept Buck because that would open the door to any man using the women's because Buck looks like a man

By the arguments on here you would, should he, in the very unlikely situation, choose to do so. The arguments against Zuzanna are that she is should not be permitted to use female spaces, no matter what she looks like or what surgery she has had . Buck Angel, who has not had no matter what he looks like, is a woman, following that line. And he has not had a phalloplasty.

Any transgender female who made themselves pass as a man can use the gents. They have no need to use the women's and any such use would be mischievous

They may well be mischievous but it still does not validate what your argument that they should not do so.

If a trans person passes well enough I guess it isn't an issue anyway
FTM pass well because of facial hair and testosterone ravages their skin. They still look 'off' though but they are no danger to men anyway
MTF rarely pass in RL. Paris Lees imo is the most convincing but that may be different in RL. But it seems a lot of MTF believe they pass. I have come across males in RL who seem to believe it. I don't know if they really do
The only solution imo is single sex spaces and a third gender neutral space

Most, if not all, masculine looking women who have not changed their bodies through hormones and surgery will still be recognisably female.

It totally is, not kind of. No, I wouldn't have to accept Buck because that would open the door to any man using the women's because Buck looks like a man. Transactivists often say it's feminists fault that women who look more masculine are being challenged. It's not - it's the fault of transactivism. It didn't arise before because of the social honour system of trust that meant men didn't force themselves into women's facilities. TRA breached that and destroyed it.

Any transgender female who made themselves pass as a man can use the gents. They have no need to use the women's and any such use would be mischievous.

Getting weary of the idea that who should qualify for entry into women's spaces is a question that should be thrashed out among various subsets of the population of male people.

This! Absolutely fucking sick and tired of it.

They can all piss off. I don't care where they go.

Only women in the women's' is a perfectly coherent stance that is not contradicted by 'some women in the men's'

It kind of is- but so be it. And by your argument if even one man complained about a trans man using male facilities you would have to support him.

No, not at all Lass. 'Only women in the women's' is a perfectly coherent stance that is not contradicted by 'some women in the men's'.

Let’s be clear. Segregated female spaces are appropriate places for trans women who have physically transitioned into women via a combination of hormone therapy and surgery.

Let's be clear. The only study of its kind that showed transwomen conformed to male pattern criminality, used men with gender dysphoria.

Transwomen might well decide that their effort to not look like a man constitutes womanhood and that's up to them. It doesn't and it's got nothing to do with being a women.

A man rejecting manhood is not a woman. And I'm sick to death of hearing it.

If you are being logical then the theory is he should use female spaces and Zuzanna shouldn't.

If Buck Angel wants to use the gents, that's up to him. That decision does not correlate with men using the women's. Unless you ignore the underlying power dynamic.

Buck is entitled to use the women's facilities. And would have to explain if challenged. That's the price of making yourself look like a man.

No. I want women space to include only women. Im not bothered if men's spaces include women or not.

Why would Buck need to use women's spaces, I always assumed they want to use the men's? If men have a problem with that they need to speak up

I'm sure he wouldn't- that wasn't particularly the point. If you are being logical then the theory is he should use female spaces and Zuzanna shouldn't.

I don't think anyone is saying that no male trans person ever passes for female. It's just that we have to be realistic and say that when they don't, women and girls may be uncomfortable.

Women who are challenging in female spaces would continue to be challenged, even if no transperson exists.

Why would Buck need to use women's spaces, I always assumed they want to use the men's? If men have a problem with that they need to speak up.

We’d effectively be saying ‘take the drugs, mutilate your bodies, and we’ll let you join our club.’

Also, if we are to open the doors to post-op transsexuals this is really forcing children with gender dysphoria down the medical route.

I was sympathetic to the idea transsexuals should have access to women’s spaces until a couple of years ago. Now I think it was the thin end of the wedge. Sorry, but transgenderism made us look more closely at transexualism and I don’t think there’s a clear dividing line between the two.

Depending on the changing room, this may make women and girls uncomfortable at the very least

There are often posts on here by women saying that due to their "non conforming" appearance they have been challenged. I know it's trite but the oft mentioned Buck Angel by the rigid chromosomes definition should use female facilities as possibly should Fox Fisher. If Zuzanna Mroz were not open about her status I doubt anyone would realise.

I take MsBeaujangles' point about the risk of a 2 tier system. However it strikes me, as someone who is not "gender critical", that it's a tad hypocritical to refer to the harm self ID does to the people desrcibed on FWR as "genuine transexuals" and then pile on when one of them speaks up.

I think it is important to use the underpinning rationale for sex segregation to determine access.
I want sex segregation to be based on sexed bodies. Female only prisons, hospital wards etc afford privacy, dignity and safety. If someone has undergone full SRS, has a diagnosis of gender dysphoria and has been screened for other, conditions/disorders (including paraphilias) I wouldn't mind sharing such spaces as I don't think my dignity or privacy would be compromised in the same way it would with a person with male genitalia.
I think the down side of this is that it would encourage males with GD to have irreversible surgery, which isn't a good thing. It would also create a 2 tier model that is unfair/distressing for those who can't have surgery for medical reasons but desperately want it.
Ultimately, I don't think we should require people who have gender dysphoria to use provision according to their natal sex, if this is something that is distressing and degrading for them, regardless of whether their sexed bodies have been fashioned to look like that of the other sex. The solution is not to eradicate single sex provision by replacing it with gender based provision. We need to think about how to uphold the underpinning rationale for the provision.

A male transperson who has full surgery may not look female.

Depending on the changing room, this may make women and girls uncomfortable at the very least.

No I'm not nice. Please don't assume the "female socialisation to be nice" argument applies to me. I just don't see any particular reason why a trans woman who has had full surgery should not use female changing rooms and toilets.

Of course you do, because you're nice

I agree with her.

Getting weary of the idea that who should qualify for entry into women's spaces is a question that should be thrashed out among various subsets of the population of male people.

This.

Tommy Robinson has a video interview with this person.