Zuzanna Mroz in The Spectator

Turph gave an interesting account of her experience and thoughtful choices in another thread Sun 16-Sep-18 06:23:09:

I'm very butch. I've been asked to leave the women's toilets before. I've been challenged plenty. I've also seen the looks of discomfort on women's faces as they don't challenge me. I have joked about it to friends who never realised it happens all the time. Many women look at me with fear, when I go to a public toilet.

...I feel uncomfortable because of how uncomfortable other women are. If I'm out in a pub, for example, I leave my jacket behind with whoever I'm with, so that my breasts are more obvious, whatever I'm wearing. I don't make eye contact and I'm in and out as quickly as I can be. I've always used public toilets like this and I'm entitled to be in there! Maybe it's my female socialisation that means I'm acutely aware of how unwelcome I am in there as a natal woman who looks fairly masculine....So although I'm identifiable as a woman, a: some women still think I'm a man, b: some women look at me with fear, c: some women challenge me. So I can't see how a trans woman is likely to have used women's toilets "for years" without incident. Most women aren't confident enough to challenge but some are - and there are only a very small number of MtFs who pass. So what is actually happening is what previous posters have alluded to, and women are uncomfortable, scared, etc and unable or unwilling to say anything. What is telling/ironic/infuriating/all of the above is that the trans women who make the argument are unable to see that discomfort and fear, possibly due to a lack of female socialisation.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3364094-Debbie-Hayton-in-the-Times?pg=4&messages=100

Surely the point is keeping women safe, both from actual attack, and from fear of attack ? The Buck Angels of this world are a minute minority, and in practical terms we all know that someone like Buck isn’t going to use the Ladies.
So theorising in this way is like the arguments against animal testing, that ask you if you would test a drug on animals if it would save your child, when many of us would probably test something on our next door neighbour if it would ave our child, never mind on a bunny.
All male people should be kept out of female space. If someone female really looks so convincingly male that they would frighten other women, then they are obviously going to want to use the gents. If on they did want to use the Ladies then that would be tricky, perhaps they need to be able to reassure women in there that they are female, somehow. Another reason why allowing anyone to change the sex on their passport is insane.

Are you talking about Anne Ruzylo scots? She's very unfeminine but I don't see a man when I look at her face. A small child might be confused but rarely an adult. Also, masculine-looking women still usually sound like women.

Buck Angel argument is so dumb

'women only space' does not mean 'women must use this space' nor does it mean 'all women use this space' nor does it mean 'women may not use other spaces' nor does it mean 'all people must use spaces specific to their sex'. It is internally and logically coherent. It means only women can use this space. There is no illogicality

The argument used by gender critical rad fems is that changing gender presentation does not change biology. It is frequently said that every cell remains xy or xx as appropriate.

For the purposes of this argument I am not in the least bit interested in whether trans men like BA pass (he does)or whether he would ever want to use a ladies loo (he wouldn't) But if you are arguing only biology matters then BA is still a woman. So your assertion that "only women can use this place" includes him. There is nothing logical in your argument other than you are trying to find something which alllows you to exclude both BA and Zuzanna.

Make your mind up - if only biology matters what he looks like is irrelevant by your (rad fem you) definition of what a woman is. Or are you (rad fem you) now saying , actually biology doesn't matter when the biological woman presents as a very macho man?

Except biology does matter to you in the case of Zuzanna despite her very feminine looking, penis- free body.

As ever Datun has summed it up for me very succinctly:

A man rejecting manhood is not a woman. And I'm sick to death of hearing it.

It's utter rubbish to think you get to appropriate womanhood by denying inherent and immutable masculinity.

Castration isn’t a part of being given a GRC. I feel that the GRA was sneakily put through on just this basis, that there is the assumption of wanting castration as part of “living as a woman” so it wasn’t enshrined in law as essential.
I note the language often used about “transition” makes this assumption , without stating it. Most people I know assume a transwoman is someone who has been, or is waiting to be, castrated.
If we see a person who is clearly not female, in a female only space, how can we tell whether or not they have had SRS ? It isn’t remotely enforceable to only allow in someone who has had their penis removed.

But there are plenty of people who have a dysphoria diagnosis, but have no intention of being castrated. That Labour women’s officer who told people to “suck my big lady cock” being a case in point.

Charliethefeminst has said what I wanted to express, but with far more clarity and eloquence.

I'm just going to nail this right here because the Buck Angel argument is so dumb.

'women only space' does not mean 'women must use this space' nor does it mean 'all women use this space' nor does it mean 'women may not use other spaces' nor does it mean 'all people must use spaces specific to their sex'. It is internally and logically coherent. It means only women can use this space. There is no illogicality.

As for Buck Angel, the reasoning for BA to use the gents rests on pragmatism not logic (or lack of).

1. If BA and people like BA use the women's, it becomes impossible to maintain a female only space.

1. BA has no reason to use the women's.

1. BA plainly passes as male, and the only reason for BA to use the women's would be pure mischief, an attempt to break down sex-specific spaces and thus remove the women only space.

So it's not illogical to maintain a women only space, and it is pragmatic, and not illogical to say it should not be used by people like BA.

Some women wouldn't mind BA in their spaces. I don't speak for all women at all. My only point is that it is not illogical to maintain a women only space, while at the same time not requiring every woman to use it.

I would feel very stressed by a man in an all female space, penis or not. You can’t check if someone has one !
Also a female single sex space means just that. Women and girls only.
Someone like Buck Angel is not a danger to men, and would prefer to use the Gents, surely ? The sex segregation is based on safety, so it isn’t comparable the other way round. Males in female space ? A threat. Females in male space ? Not a threat. Males who pass as female in female space ? Still a threat.

we don't know for sure if a very masculine woman is exactly that or a transsexual with their penis removed. Some women do look quite manly

I've never seen a butch woman and not known she was a woman. I've never seen an effeminate man and thought he was a woman.

ZuttZeVootEeVro just as we don't know for sure if a very masculine woman is exactly that or a transsexual with their penis removed. Some women do look quite manly including some of our most vocal allies but no-one would challenge their right to be there.

I thought the BIG issue was about penises in women’s spaces? Zuzanna presumably doesn’t have one.

I don't know which transpeople have a penis and which ones haven't. How can I possibly know? Seeing as though the vast majority of male transpeople do not have meaningful surgery, I'm going to assume that none of them do for my own safety.

I thought the BIG issue was about penises in women’s spaces? Zuzanna presumably doesn’t have one.

I don’t have a problem with actual genuine transsexuals who’ve gone through the whole medical/surgical/GRC process using women’s loos & changing rooms (& I doubt very much they’d be wanting to infiltrate eg refuges).

Actually I get the feeling lots of transgender people (in the old sense of the term) don't want self ID either and have been saying so for a long time. I know as I've met a couple who said much of what is in this article. They should welcome a system that proves they are genuine, even if they will never actually become women.

No, I would not. To accept Buck would, by extension, be to accept any man

But the gender critical line is Buck isn't a man. He meets your (rad fem , gc , you ) definition of a biological woman. Every cell in his body is still xy and he has a vagina.

Now I don't think there is any possibility he will use the ladies' loo , but make your mind up. Zuzanna looks like a woman (I'm assuming she does not have a penis and has had surgery from the tenor of that argument)but you won't allow her in. Buck is, according to the rad fem definition, female, but you won't allow him in either.

I'm with Aspie on the slippery slope is now too bloody slippery.

I think the argument that if male transsexuals can't go in the women's irrespective of surgery then we have to accept passing transmen in there is rubbish. It isn't just about safety, it's also about discomfort and anxiety. Males rarely pass and therefore cause anxiety; passing FtM look like men and therefore cause anxiety. They can use the men's without problems if they pass. None of this is for women to sort out or accommodate. Male violence and our fear of it is not our fault.

I hate greedy, selfish men who think they have a right to decide who can get away with accessing women's spaces. They can all fuck off....NO MEN! 🤬🤬

The fact that women are at risk from male predators is why we have sex segregated spaces-I will fight to maintain them, and transexuals need to fight for the addition of gender neutral spaces. (Not expect us to welcome them into our women only spaces.)

I M sorry I do think PL is attractive but the latest pics do not nt bring out the female

We can't do anything about males who can disguise themselves sufficiently. Even if the law were on our side, there's nothing we can do. But there are precious few, if an. PL's profile pic right now even now looks male with make up.

My attitude to transwomen who pass enough to use women’s facilities is the same as towards high functioning drunks who drive.

It’s a neat trick. and I’m glad nobody actually got hurt this time, but it’s still a threat to other people’s safety, and just because some people get away with it doesn’t mean we should stop challenging idiots who are obviously pissed because they are swerving across the road while singing Danny Boy.

There's someone on twitter who is a 'seven foot' trans. I hope they don't use female spaces. They are hardly at risk in the men's.