Vaginas/women raping people

Ah sorry fermats, I somehow missed your post before I posted mine!

The main difference between Scots and E&W (not just English please ) rape law is that E&W specifies penetration with a penis (does not specify sex, but it's a given...), whereas Scots law specifies penetration with a penis or a neopenis (still does not specify sex).

And I'm sure most people here know, but I'll say it again for the noobs - it is helpful to know (when someone points out that women assault too) that the sentence for a "sexual assault by penetration" is equal to that of rape.

As a moral issue, I am torn on rape vs. assault by penetration. One one hand rape carries additional risks (STDs, pregnancy) which are not there in assault by penetration. On the other hand, the two are indistinguishably traumatic for the victim (which the law recognises, incidentally: the sentencing guidelines are the same for both offences).

The main reason I'm interested in defending the current definition of rape is that in our newspeak, double-think world where even official statistics are being distorted and falsified, rape is the only offence which in virtue of its legal definition, unequivocally identifies the perpetrator (or in common purpose cases, at least one of the perpetrators) as having a penis at the time the offence was committed.

It's the one offence which doesn't allow for wriggle room in wilfully misinterpreting statistics to further a misogynist agenda.

Unfortunately the direction politicians are taking us in will mean that yes women be able to rape because if we are forced to believe that TWAW and if ANYONE can be trans, (regardless of their motives), and if penises are supposed to be a female organ then yes, 2+2 could only ever equal 5.

And of course as for those inconvenient little stats about which sex is usually the perpetrator and which the victim. Once you replace biology with anything other than reality then penis crimes can be counted as crimes committed by women and very soon the figures will either show total equality in offences. Or worse still, if we consider that of the 125 trans identifying prisoners we are currently told about, 60 of the ‘mtf’ have committed sexual offences.... (which gives a percentage far higher than sex offenders in the ‘males identifying as men’ prison population).... then the outcome could even be that ‘women’ are labelled as being more sexually violent than men.!!!

If data isn't separated by biological sex then it will lose all relevance.

Please somebody show me the way out of this rabbit hole.

yetanother Scots law does use almost the same definition (I looked it up last time someone brought this point up, apropos of a rapist held in a Scottish prison). Different, slightly more recent legislation but essentially the same wording.

I don’t think physically born woman commit rape that often (compared to men). And maybe people talking about women raping men don’t fully understand what they hear or read (yes I know some women have raped). But I have to be honest it was a few years ago now when I first came across a news article saying a woman was arrested and being tried for rape. I was and it t took me a while to figure out that the woman was indeed a man

Can I point out that English law is separate to Scottish law? And also Northern Irish law.

I've read on other threads that the Scottish definition of rape doesn't specify penis, but I've just looked it up and does.

Anyway, there is no single 'UK' law on sex offences.

I'm not sure anyone is intending to derail here--given the thread title it's not surprising that people who have had experience of this would click on it and join the discussion.

However OP I have encountered what you describe from people who have a different agenda and apart from statistics I'm at a loss as to how to counter it really. Any suggestions?

Crime statistics for the year ending March 2017 showed that men were responsible for 99% of rapes and assaults involving penetration. So, that's a factor of 100, not 50. Also, the female figures may include trans women, we can't tell.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/articles/sexualoffencesinenglandandwales/yearendingmarch2017

sayhelloandwavegoodbye - I've only just seen your post as we pretty much posted at the same time.

I am sorry that you have endured so much violence.

Yes, individual trauma is sympathy-inducing, but it doesn't actually mean we should ignore the data and never discuss the empirical truth.

Don't worry Booze I don't think most people here think that's what you were trying to do.

I don't think anyone is trying to minimise sexual violence by women. I think someone may be trying to falsely imply that we are minimising sexual violence by women in order to stop us talking about the fact that male sexual violence is in fact more prevalent by a factor of fifty.

I also think I've seen this derailment tactic before.

It’s “whataboutery” in action. Always said to derail and minimise discussion about issues affecting women and girls.

If MN allowed signatures at the end of every post, this would be mine:
victimfocus.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/stop-asking-me-what-about-men/

It makes a change for “what about men?” to become “what about women?” and I only ever hear it in relation to rape. Amazing, really

sayhello and sorry to hear about your attack too.

Again, Djnoun, I am sorry to hear about your attack, but you do not get to use that as a silencing tactic to prevent women talking about male sexual violence. You just don't. This is not a game of top trumps.

I'm just saying, be careful what you are saying to prove a point. Don't say to someone who has been hurt, that's sad BUT....

I won't be reading or commenting any further on this thread.

So sorry to hear about your attack, Djnoun.

But please bear in mind that what we're discussing here is not individuals (all rapes and sexual assaults are terrible, whoever the perpetrators are, that goes without saying), but public policy and safeguarding.

About 1 person a decade is killed by a cyclist on the pavement. This is a deeply terrible thing for them and their families. That doesn't mean though that because pavements are unsafe because of this we should allow motorcyclists on the pavement too.

That's the point we're trying to make with women only spaces. Yes, the occasional assault will happen, and that is terrible when it does, and the perpetrators are vile women. But that's not a reason to let men in there too, with male offending patterns, which show that we'd likely see a 50 fold increase in such incidents.

Again, I'm sorry to hear what happened to you. But we do need to talk about statistics too, as well as individual experiences. Both the individual lived experiences and the wider patterns matter.

it's how they equate male and female sexual violence as if these two things happen as frequently in society.

It does raise questions about how some people manage to assess risk for themselves and those for whom they care if there's such little understanding of relative numbers and the nature of verifiable evidence.

I've been sexually assaulted by a woman (once).

And sexually assaulted by males more times than I can even list off the top of my head (including 2 rapists).

I am sorry for your experience, djnoun (but mine is that the great big ejaculating, prengnancy making cocks in my vagina did the worst damage)

@thisonehasalittlecar

It was when I was seventeen, so a long time ago now. But stuff like this makes me upset, like what happened doesn't count because it was a woman and it's not statistically convenient.

Djnoun that's awful, I'm sorry.

@arranfan

No, but I've been seriously sexually assaulted by a woman and that's evidence enough for me, thanks.

The thing to remember is the stats. Regardless of whether you define rape as penetration by a penis (UK law) or take a broader definition (e.g. US law), the fact remains that in the UK, 98% of people in prison for sex offences are male. There are more men in prison for sex offences than there are women in prison in total for any offence (and most women are in prison for non-violent offences like handling stolen goods, non-payment of fines, drug dealing).

Yes, women do it too. But men do it fifty times more often.

Women do sexually assault other people though.

Do you have relevant statistics to quote/link as that might be helpful?