A moment of pause to venerate Janice Turner

Janice didn't ask Hugo Rifkind to join a campaign, she asked him what he thought. This is a man who writes an opinion column for a living so I don't feel inclined to be charitable.

Admittedly he did at least reply which gives him an edge over Jonathon Freedland, Simon Jenkins and Rafael Behr.

Anyway congratulations Janice.

Well deserved for Janice.

I think that's probably very fair re Hugo. And to be honest I'm not really following the anti-Semitic thing as closely as I should so he could throw the same accusation at me (although it's not my job to be on top of these political movements). I can see it's dreadful but I can't really see the big picture.

I am just waiting for a serious male journalist to join the dots on this and put the whole splash together. I'd love Janice to do it but men don't listen to women it seems.

Well done Janice.

Let the bullying of the organisers, the venue, the sponsors, the judges and the other journalists commence.

Well done Janice!

Janice Turner has been shortlisted for the Press Gazette's British Journalism Awards

I think like most men he probably thinks it isn’t his problem. He gets alot of ant-Semitic crap on twitter and he probably wants to avoid getting more crap so it’s easier to dodge the issue.

Yes. Whats going on with Hugo? Would love to have a conversation with him about why he thinks it’s mean to call male people men.

at Hugo Rifkind when Janice Turner presses him to comment: the prevaricating (‘I’m at the park’) the twisting and the flailing and finally the snarling - all this from the son of a Cabinet Minister who presumably had the best education money can buy. Interesting how Sarah Ditum chips in then backs off. Is Hugo known to be going places, I wonder and not someone to cross? If so it makes Janice Turner all the more courageous.

Thanks KataraJean. I struggle to understand why men do not support women and why women with power/a voice do not support those who do not. I love how well Janice Turner expresses things and am very grateful to her for her work.

Sorry, it was early and I should have read more closely.

Where are the TransMen Tweeting “not all men have prostates” and yelling ‘transphobic!’ over the Guardian article about prostate cancer?

What’s sauce got the goose, and all that...

#ganderphobic
#GanderCritical

You see, you’ve expressed what I wanted to say succinctly.

I did not introduce the term, you did.

I mean that men do not see rape as rape in the way that women do.

I think we are on the same page but I’m not good enough at expressing myself. Didn’t go to university or do well at school, not employed in a field in which I’ve had to write my views (but I know basic grammar).

All of which ties into the view that women are not worthy of full consideration

BigGreenOlives non-consensual sex with a partner is rape, let’s not water it down with a euphemism.
I very much agree with you about rape as a war crime - but it is not clear you were talking about that in your post, unless I was missing something. You say ‘that women have sex with some men sometimes, so why do women not put up with sex they don’t want’ - which seems to me about the boundaries of consent; whereas rape in war is surely about a general mentality of seeing women as possessions and the spoils of war. It is about taking the women who ‘belong’ to the other side; not about whether they have sex with some other men or not.

Of course, all rape is about control and men taking what they fundamentally believe is theirs without consent. But war rape is also about humiliating the men whose wives/daughters/mothers are being raped. It goes beyond the belief that women can be raped because you know, they have sex anyway, because it is also an attack on the masculinity of the losing side (they cannot protect their women).

Not sure if that is clear, I have not watched the documentary you mention.

KataraJean I didn’t mean non-consensual sex with a partner, I meant stranger rape. Rape, such as that used in war, as only been treated seriously as a war crime despite being officially considered as a war crime for decades. The documentary film ‘The Uncondemned’ follows the activities of a group of lawyers seeking justice for women in Rwanda following the genocide.

I agree with your thoughts on ‘out of sight out of mind’ & women being disregarded as ‘hysterical’.

KataraJean

Yes. Very insightful.

BigGreenOlives it makes sense; but I also think historically speaking, the idea that consent needs to be ongoing and affirmative is relatively recent, and many people still do make the jump from she had sex with him once so why did she not want it again? Or whatever the scenario is that is not stranger rape.

Plus men do not live with the knowledge that the penis people (to whom they belong) are the potential harm - because most of the time, most of them do not think of themselves that way or do not mean to cause harm - and when they do, they rationalise it away (crimes of passion; she provoked him; she was asking for it; but she did x, y or z; or you know, despite all the evidence it happened, the woman is just crazy so who pays attention to her) and the law and media helps them do that.

Out of sight, out of mind - men are not likely at all to be the victims here, so for most of them who do not see themselves as perpetrators, why worry?

Jeez, I am depressing this morning . There are good men out there.

I think they fundamentally think the same about rape, that women have sex willingly with some men sometimes so why do they (we) not just put up with sex we don’t want (rape). Women are not seen as proper humans, but as ‘other’, hence men & ‘non-men’. Men who do not perform masculinity in the approved way are thus ‘women’ and can use women only spaces.

Hope that makes sense.

Yes I think that is where it comes from.

That women should have equal rights and everything but they are just ever so slightly lesser. So those funny kind of men - you know the ones - they say they’re women so let’s dump them in that category since that’s where they say they want to be. And they certainly don’t seem like men like me. It kind of makes sense and no harm done really. But we should let women moan about it because that’s free speech and free speech is a good manly goal.

Am I ringing any bells Hugo ?

Yes, very smart men not seeing it is depressing. Because women being lesser than is so normalised they have to have a fairly major re-think before they get it.

Fortunately that re-think can't be undone.

to be fair the only strike I got was absolutely deserved, I knew I was behaving badly - red mist had descended. I've got no major problem with needing to remain reasonably polite.

but oh how I long to call a man a man.

Re the MN rules, it's noticeable that a lot of TRA/MRA people can't manage to operate within them for long.