Poll: 52% of people consider a person who was born male and has male genitalia but identifies as a woman to be a man

The two blog posts from WoS that contain results for self-ID polling:

Scotland (Jan 2018) wingsoverscotland.com/the-law-that-nobody-wants/

England (May 2018) wingsoverscotland.com/girls-and-boys/

I read a comment on the twitter or somewhere that it might have polled using people who are signed up for polls and who get credits and tokens and whatnot for their time, (and I think from a quick check, this is the case?).

This is just nonsense. Lots of people are signed up to YouGov and Populus and all the rest and get micro payments for stuff. Nobody discredits YouGov or Survation's election predictions because the survey company has a commercial arm.

This polling is a) professional, b) robust, c) representative. Here is the methodology used by YouGov and Populus, for example.

yougov.co.uk/about/panel-methodology/

www.populus.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Populus-Omnibus-Flyer-Jun15-Display.pdf

I look at these results in my own way though - a very small minority of Britons are confident enough genderists to express positive support for the transactivst agenda. I find this very encouraging.

Agreed. That's why I thought it was worth emphasising the small numbers of people who unequivocally agreed that TWAW, rather than the only just over half who thought TWAM.

I look at these results in my own way though - a very small minority of Britons are confident enough genderists to express positive support for the transactivst agenda. I find this very encouraging.

Me too.

I read a comment on the twitter or somewhere that it might have polled using people who are signed up for polls and who get credits and tokens and whatnot for their time, (and I think from a quick check, this is the case?).

If so, it just made me wonder if some people thought that their answers might in fact be monitored. I used to do surveys that were rewarded like this a few years ago and was picky about what I answered for this reason, just in case someone was building a profile of me, even though they say that they don't (not this polling company). But maybe I am just paranoid! It is a sensitive issue though.

That's a really interesting point.

twitter.com/Evanderstap/status/1055195745538789379

LOL. You show them the crowdfunding page. You explain how much it cost. And they still say it cost 3x what you said it did and you're not admitting the shady funding.

And don't forget we also read about "gender based violence" which suggests to the young and inexperienced that a change of clothes will protect you from assault. (it doesn't - I tried!)

I think people are confused and no wonder when we have evidence that even the NHS has willfully conflated the terms gender and sex.

But surely women know what men are like as well - if the statistics about how many women have been victims of sexual assault are anything to go by.

You would think. But I wonder if the concept that male sexual violence against women is endemic has not been out there enough. Female socialisation to feel shame and responsibility is also huge! It is starting to be spoken about - me too etc - but almost at the same time we find this push to obscure what even is sex and what even are boundaries and consent.

I say this as someone who only made the connections that what happened wasn't my fault and was part of a greater society wide issue a good decade after experiencing sexual assaults. And as someone automatically TWAW until relatively recently.

I'd love to know how the answers may have changed if all of the questions simply omitted the words 'was born'.

As I understand it, Helen simply wanted to say something like person with penis who identifies as a woman but the polling companies wouldn't let her say penis. That's why it took a couple of weeks to agree wording.

Lang do you know if the axiom of the 'don't knows' split holds true even where the sensitivity of a topic varies?

I don't, sorry! Any knowledge of polling I have is mostly based on being a political geek and reading into the fall-outs over times when pollsters have called it wrong and when they've called it right.

I look at these results in my own way though - a very small minority of Britons are confident enough genderists to express positive support for the transactivst agenda. I find this very encouraging.

From what I've read only men can be transwomen. Yet those same men (who are transwomen) scream that they are women.

We have always been at war with Eurasia.

Panelbase via Wings Over Scotland: 25% support for self-ID

YouGov via Pink News: 18%

Populus via crowdfunding: 13%

Putting my translogic head on, that’s a total of 46%.

One more poll and they’ll have a majority.

I'd love to know how the answers may have changed if all of the questions simply omitted the words 'was born'. Every human is born, so the word ought to be superfluous.
It's deliberate inclusion leads the respondent to the implicit suggestion that something about that born state must have changed. "Was born this way but will die another way"? It leads people to feel there is a question mark over that status, male, that belies it's true immutability.
Not to mention the past tense was juxtapositioned next to male!

It's like asking a person
"Do you still believe XYZ?"
Vs
"Do you believe XYZ?"
The inclusion of 'still' carries an expectation of change.

I bet that if the question had been asked without the words was born people would have answered even more assertively.

We would now like you to think about a male person with normal male genitalia but who identifies as a woman. In your own personal view would you consider this person to be a woman or a man?

And then the same question with male pronouns:

We would now like you to think about a male person with normal male genitalia. He identifies as a woman. In your own personal view would you consider him to be a woman or a man?

People underestimate how miniscule language changes influence perception.

Lang do you know if the axiom of the 'don't knows' split holds true even where the sensitivity of a topic varies? E.g. Pears v Imperial Leather is one thing, no big deal to most. These questions carry a lot more emotional charge, worry about getting it 'right' etc. I suspect the don't knows here might not split the same as the rest of the results, especially for women, because even in an anon survey they don't want to be mean. Not one scrap of evidence for this, just my initial interpretation.

QuietContrary re brainwashing, I don't think we can assume that young women's views on these issues will stay the same. Age and experience tend to radicalise women.

LittleBrown agree about class. The pearl clutching about someone handing out FPFW leaflets in Moss Side inevitably leading to trans murder and suicide was 'oh no, the rough lads will chin us' writ large. Because all working class people are violent and ignorant. 

Great stuff. Thank you Very interesting poll and results.

I did a proper LOL at this Your point ? Am I not allowed an opinion because I'm trans? BINGO! I mean, its like some people just cannot help themselves!

I read a comment on the twitter or somewhere that it might have polled using people who are signed up for polls and who get credits and tokens and whatnot for their time, (and I think from a quick check, this is the case?).

If so, it just made me wonder if some people thought that their answers might in fact be monitored. I used to do surveys that were rewarded like this a few years ago and was picky about what I answered for this reason, just in case someone was building a profile of me, even though they say that they don't (not this polling company). But maybe I am just paranoid! It is a sensitive issue though.

Selected people could opt in or out presumably? It could also explain why people were coy or don't knowing because they wanted the points but didn't really want to comment, or didn't much care.

My apologies if this was not how the poll was conducted. It is really interesting to see what the general public say. And it will have got people thinking which is very important too.

TWAW can be tricky because people still think well do you mean socially? Legally? Biolgically? People might have commented yes or don't know to TWAW when they mean treat them politely or socially as a woman, but not legally or biologically.

The other Qs get to the heart of the matter really well. Sport and changing etc. Very clear.

I also think that men may poll more hardline on this kind of subject as they know better than women what goes on in men's minds and have seen how men behave when women aren't around, either their own or their mates, or heard and seen down the pub, locker room, parties etc. I think women usually don't know the half of it. What we do hear, we often do not like.

Just seen that Olennas* has said that last bit re men knowing men!

Yes, shockingly high number of don't knows which I believe to reflect that they truly don't know what the issues are. I suspect further enquiries would ascertain that many who did vote either way, also are not really fully appraised either. More drilling down needed.

Those pie charts would be helpful by gender and age for an at a glance reference.

Was also surprising the range of twam within various settings (sports/smears)

twitter.com/marstrina/status/1055150286300430336

Good Twitter thread with some thoughts and some pretty pie charts.

PleasingFungusBeetle - I think we needs loads more polling and would be more than happy to contribute to further crowdfunds.

Very interesting results. Thanks to those who organised it

I would definitely donate to have this repeated but also broken down by political orientation/ voter intention - it would be very helpful to those of us on the left to know if we do have secret support and how much. It can feel lonely over here

I was taking twanw the same as twam hence 52%. Am not being specific enough with my terms I think, but I am surprised that the figure is so high 19% twaw, even though that is very low, its high considering what we are talking about here.

Shriekingbanshee
It's not 52% who think TWANW, its 52% who think TWAM.
19% think TWAW
20% don't know
7% neither man nor woman
3% prefer not to say.
Which adds up to 101%, so there are some rounding errors.

Anyway, only 19% think TWAW, so 81% think transwomen are not women.

...and the other %age that thought twaw were the youngsters, who I'm thinking seem to be too scared to make any judgements about anything gender-wise!

I am shocked that only 52% think twanw.

Many are not involved in the issues/don't know what they implications are maybe.

Think it was well worded. Where was the poll held?

MsVanilla
Did you miss the bit that said that only 19% think TWAW?
Which means 81% of people don't.

I'm too tired to figure out if that made sense. But yeah. Brexit. 🙄

It only had 2 possible answers...