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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Who would agree with this compromise?

36 replies

angelwithalariat · 24/10/2018 16:11

Get rid of the GRA/GRC altogether. You can't change your sex.

Recognise people might also have a social sex, which could be called gender if it seemed everyone would understand that.

If a form asks for your sex, it means your legal, natal, XX/XY sex, because that is what it needs to know . When it doesn't matter, use whatever gender you want.

Passport and driving license can use your gender because that's about identifying you.

Sometimes they can ask for both so that your doctor's computer can send out letters saying 'Dear Ms Jones, don't forget your prostate check' when necessary.

Spaces might be segregated by sex or gender, but it has to be completely clear which is being used. If sex is being used, there has to be a third space. Certain institutions have to use sex. (Schools for instance. Public toilets.) So a nightclub could use gender if its clientele would prefer that. Or I was thinking of the poster who said that, at their uni, the sociology building loos were by gender and the physics ones by sex.

This means we get rid of a legal fiction which is becoming dangerous and people who want to be recognised in a particular social role can do so. Everyone happy.

OP posts:
angelwithalariat · 24/10/2018 17:05

I see what you mean Barracker, suppose we used a different term than gender? Not sure what - but nailing down an exact, unarguable meaning for sex.

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catkind · 24/10/2018 17:01

I don't think unrecord sex. I'd be happy with adding gender as an additional field on passports etc if people feel uncomfortable just being recorded under their sex.
Free text field so people can put whatever they want or leave it blank, like when religion is recorded. After all being transgender is nothing to be embarrassed about. In some ways it should be recorded, for example for medical statistics, crime statistics, getting the correct medical care, and to make sure trans people are not discriminated against.

Agree clarity is vital.

angelwithalariat · 24/10/2018 17:01

I gather you can already put what you want on passport or driving license, even without a GRC?

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ZuttZeVootEeVro · 24/10/2018 16:47

Spaces might be segregated by sex or gender, but it has to be completely clear which is being used

I do think this is important. Women need to know if the are entering a sex segregated space or one that segregated by gender.

Barracker · 24/10/2018 16:44

No.

Although I applaud the intent, and have been through similar thought processes.

Ultimately, the classifications of female and male, woman and man, girl and boy, must always relate to sex, and only to sex.

The conflation and confusion has to stop, completely.

Gender is a belief system, like religion, and as such you can legislate to ensure people aren't discriminated against for holding a belief. But there should be no endorsement of that belief on documents, or reallocation of sex based spaces to religion.
And no conflation of sex terms in any recognition of gender.

If a practising Hindu called themselves an orthodox Jew and expected to have synagogues adapt to their Hindu beliefs because they erroneously are calling them Judaism, the law would allow for that false claim to be refuted.

The law must similarly provide for the female sex to refute any misuse of the word female from a person who is not female, even if they claim the word can be applied under their gender beliefs. It cannot.

I wholeheartedly agree with divorcing sex and gender irrevocably.

But I don't think it's tenable any longer to allow a mythical ideology to misappropriate sex based terminology.

Gender can have femininity and masculinity perhaps. But not female, girl or woman. Those terms are sex based and that's that.

ProfessoressWoland · 24/10/2018 16:41

Driving licences and passports are legal identification documents.
Say a man ticks the "female" box on the form and presents his woman passport when challenged - then what?

JellySlice · 24/10/2018 16:41

There is precedent for people who have gained a benefit under a law that is repealed, to retain that benefit even though it is no longer possible to grant it under the new law.

Yes GRA is a bad law, created to allow a legal fiction that is no longer necessary. Government should never mandate belief.

arranfan · 24/10/2018 16:40

I am not talking about anyone in particular but I expect there will be such cases. So how do you handle that if you change a law retrospectively

There are usually grand-fathering clauses, as they're known.

angelwithalariat · 24/10/2018 16:32

Why would you have to remarry? Marriage is now the same for gay or straight people. That's why we don't need to legally change sex anymore.

I agree though there are probably retrospective issues which would have to be thought through. I am thinking more about what would work going forward.

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lassupthebrew · 24/10/2018 16:28

What about the transsexual woman who got a birth certificate changed in 2005 and then married a man legally and they are still married 13 years later. How would your compromise work for them?

I am not talking about anyone in particular but I expect there will be such cases. So how do you handle that if you change a law retrospectively?

Declare their marriage illegal? Or tell the man he has to now become gay and remarry under a same sex relationship?

arranfan · 24/10/2018 16:15

Get rid of the GRA/GRC altogether. You can't change your sex.

I may have pointed out that this was a discussion point that might usefully have been included within the recent consultation.