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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Butterfly - Feedback from ITV to email complaint

360 replies

ShineyNewName5032 · 24/10/2018 13:21

As many on here have noted Butterfly is possibly one of the most controversial topics covered on ITV. I wrote to express my concerns this is the response:

Dear Sir/Madam,

Thank you for your email concerning ITV’s new drama series Butterfly.

The producers consulted with senior clinical psychologists as well as the charity Mermaids. Most importantly, they spoke to families and children about their own lived experiences. The programme does not “promote” Mermaids, although the charity is depicted in a handful of scenes across three episodes. It depicts the family being advised by a range of different professionals, and indeed being offered a range of different advice, both in this country and the United States.

We do not consider that the drama is irresponsible or could “lead to more suicides”. The drama depicts a nuanced and complex story of an unhappy child, whose feelings are increasingly distressing, and which are leading to self-harming. This reflects the lived experience of some young people who are not comfortable in their assigned gender, but we do not suggest that Maxine represents all young people in this situation. It is clear that our fictional families’ problems are complex, as Maxine’s parents both clearly wish to protect their child, but cannot agree on the best course of action, and this conflict is itself shown to be damaging to Maxine’s wellbeing.

Nevertheless, thank you for sharing your thoughts with us.

Yours sincerely,

Charlie
Viewer Services Supervisor

OP posts:
Fairenuff · 25/10/2018 10:14

Where are all the trans people who are otherwise fully adjusted and happy, whose families reject stereotypes and support gender non-conformity? There must be lots out there, surely?

And where are all the transgirls that don't like wearing skirts or makeup and do like trains and football? There must be lots, surely?

Pythagonal · 25/10/2018 10:13

Hormone blockers are to delay puberty. It is about enabling youngsters to have time to make the decision and reduce the bodily changes of puberty.

Long term use of GnRH analogues (hormone blockers) can cause bone wastage. This is one of the reasons why, when used for endometriosis, treatment is limited to six months. So they may reduce the bodily changes of puberty, but at what cost?

LangCleg · 25/10/2018 10:12

Trying to censor drama is not the way ahead.

Nobody is saying Butterfly shouldn't have been made or that drama shouldn't explore transgender identities as a cultural phenomenon.

People are saying that Samaritans guidelines should be adhered to when portraying self harming or suicidal behaviours among minors and that 11-year-olds should not be depicted on screen in hyper-sexualised ways.

It's not us saying that's the only way it's possible to make such a drama: it's ITV and the transactivists.

Kardashianlove · 25/10/2018 10:08

So do (some) parents of children with body dysphoria think that only one doctor should see the child before hormones, etc are given? Or think no doctors should be involved? I wasn’t aware of this.

What is their reason for it?

IFeelSorryForMillie · 25/10/2018 10:06

feminist4 you have said you are here to put across a different side, with explanations. Good. It's always good to look at both side of any debate/argument before making or forming or changing, your opinion.

But unfortunately and disappointingly, you haven't given any facts or research, or dare I say an informed opinion. You have refused to read/look at anything put forward to you though.

Yet it would be the perfect opportunity for you to expose/debunk, counter it with your proper (peer reviewed) research, government stats ect...

many people here have put time into reading up on and around the issue, have looked at what some TRAs use to put forward as fact, and debunked it.

If you are not willing to debate with evidence to back you up, it's a bit like you coming on and telling people the earth is flat, then sticking your fingers in your ears and saying "lalalalalaa" and shouting "meanies" when people show you evidence that the world is actually in fact, round.

RiverTam · 25/10/2018 10:06

what, you mean you're not a misanthropic drunk Irish bookseller? Well, that's disappointing.

BernardBlacksWineIcelolly · 25/10/2018 10:05

My name is a tribute to the magnificent Graham Linnehan Feminist4

plus I rather love being called Bernard

RiverTam · 25/10/2018 10:05

and I've heard from some old-school trans identified men that in fact they think it should be more rigorous. But certainly not less.

But the TRAs brand them as truscum and silence them even more that they silence feminists.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 25/10/2018 10:00

I see no reason why anyone wouldn't want as many opinions as possible before making a life long decision!

Precisely. The transwoman I met while leafletting for FPFW was strongly of the view that the GRC process should remain as it is, Storm.

The two year trial period was good because it allowed her to be sure about what she wanted. The medical bit was important too. One of the roles the process plays is to filter out applicants will predatory or largely sexual motives. She said transsexuals like her had spent many years proving that they weren't transvestites but now the TRAs were ruining things

She said getting her GRC was a big step. She felt the process protected her and wider society, and that Self ID was sure to be abused.

MrsKCastle · 25/10/2018 09:54

I am intrigued by this as well. But I believe (happy to be corrected) that in children there are generally other things going on autism / depression / trauma etc. Maybe there just aren't that many happy children who transition?

And that's exactly why more research is needed, isn't it? If 'being trans' is just something that can happen, that can't be changed - like being gay- then why the correlation with autism and so on?

Where are all the trans people who are otherwise fully adjusted and happy, whose families reject stereotypes and support gender non-conformity? There must be lots out there, surely?

StormCloudsDoClear · 25/10/2018 09:47

Sorry autocorrect doesn't like the word "dysmorphia". Apologies for the typo.

Mrskeats · 25/10/2018 09:46

I think there are often other things going on itsall
My step daughter is on the spectrum.

StormCloudsDoClear · 25/10/2018 09:43

Feminist 4 I'm really struggling to grasp your logic. You say body dysphoria is a illness and needs to be treated, but gender dysphoria is not. Surely any "dysphoria" is a illness and in need of treatment. You can't cherry pick what mental health conditions are illnesses.

I really don't understand your stance on abortion and why you are trying to use it to state 2 Dr's need to sign off on gender reassignment should be withdrawn. I have had an abortion and was glad to have discussed it with 2 medical professionals, it solidified a very nervous 19 year olds thought process that ending the life of their unborn child was correct. I see no reason why anyone wouldn't want as many opinions as possible before making a life long decision!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 25/10/2018 09:36

I wondered why they didn't choose to show a family where the child continued to insist they were the other sex despite loving acceptance of their personality. Wouldn't that have been more convincing and got more sympathy?

I am intrigued by this as well. But I believe (happy to be corrected) that in children there are generally other things going on autism / depression / trauma etc. Maybe there just aren't that many happy children who transition?

RiverTam · 25/10/2018 09:36

there was a girl a DD's nursery who's mum told me that when she was very little she refused to wear dresses and would only wear leggings and trousers, so by the time I became aware of this girl (when she was about 3) she was turning up to nursery every day in what looked like a pink party dress, lots of frills and sparkle. What was even more baffling is that this mother never wore dresses or skirts herself! I don't think there was anything more going on but it just shows that some people are extremely wedded to what they think a girl (or boy) should wear, or be into.

CosmicCanary · 25/10/2018 09:36

I was saying her use of abortion as an argument was weak

It was not used as an argument. It was used to show you that others also require multiple Drs to sign/agree to a medical procedure. So saying transpeople are discriminated against because they require it is actually false.

You actually cannot list real legal rights transpeople dont have so are attempting to avoid the subject.

MrsKCastle · 25/10/2018 09:32

Feminist4 I asked earlier about your feelings around the portrayal of the parents in Butterfly.

I'm surprised that so many trans allies are supportive of the show, when the parents were initially shown as so intolerant and unsupportive. They made Max feel that wanting to dance, wear skirts and pretty clothes etc was shameful.

As a parent of a trans child, were you happy with the portrayal of the parents?

Mrskeats · 25/10/2018 09:31

Now attacking people’s names. Mature.

Feminist4 · 25/10/2018 09:31

I was saying her use of abortion as an argument was weak

Fairenuff · 25/10/2018 09:31

I wonder if children raised in households that insist on gender stereotypes are not actually aware that loads of people are not like that. If they think that's the norm and that the whole world wants boys to play football and girls to dance in a tutu, then maybe they think there really is something wrong with them.

What I get most from that programme is that the child is very young, very isolated and very confused. The parents are selfish and unsupportive and the sibling is egging him on. He needed a lot more therapy and the parents needed to stop shouting and start listening, both to him and to the professionals working with them.

It's just so sad that he is being dragged through this with no time to catch his breath or experience the wider world. Doors closing all around him and only one direction to rush into with no looking back. All because he likes 'girls' clothes and makeup.

CosmicCanary · 25/10/2018 09:30

Fem
Number 1 on your lust of rights was nlown out the water.
Are you hoing to address your mistake?
Or are you going to continue to deflect and focus on abortion which by the way is a leagal right of all females in the UK.

Kardashianlove · 25/10/2018 09:30

she has developed certain male characteristics she hates. so, so many boys hate developing make characteristics and so many girls hate developing female characteristics. They then usually come to terms with this but quite often not until well into their 20’s. Are you honestly saying that sterilisation is the answer to someone hating their body?! It’s so sad that people are advocating this for their children. What about a teenager who was adamant they never wanted children and the thought of getting pregnant was distressing and making them feel sucicdal. Would you sterilise them? I’m sure it has less medical risks than puberty blockers.

Feminist4 · 25/10/2018 09:29

Bernard - strange name to choose, if you are a woman.

larrygrylls · 25/10/2018 09:29

Feminist,

I kind of agree with them, I am afraid, although I do think there are more subtleties than they admit to. I also believe more in live and let live and treating others’ beliefs with respect, even when I do not share them.

There are, however, clearly competing rights here and a debate needs to be had over sport (should remain natal female only) and safe spaces (ditto, though I am not sure a bog is really a ‘safe space’).

Regardless of my belief on the subject though, dramas (even dramas based on fact) should be allowed to be made and shown. Good fiction helps us to think about difficult issues. If you strongly disagree, write a good drama with the opposite message and get it screened. Trying to censor drama is not the way ahead.

Feminist4 · 25/10/2018 09:28

Very anti trans, Bernard and very intolerant. I like to think the UK is a tolerant place, but increasingly I'm less sure.