What is ‘cis privilege’?

I didn't make up the term, if someone wanted to explain to me why diabetes or asthma put them at a disadvantage, then I'd listen. If they started complaining it put then at more disadvantage than anyone else ever, then I'd expect them to start listening and have a reality check.

It is easier to be a non diabetic than a diabetic, and if diabetic people were upset and campaigning about artificial sweeteners/ sugar tax, for example, and started saying "insulin privilege," to make a point, that would be ok by me. I have never used the term privilege in this way, just that there can be a basis behind the hysteria which you dismiss alongside the term.

Nobody thinks dysphoria is not debilitating: of course it is. But it doesn't confer class-based social privilege when it is absent in a person. Many women suffer dysphoria throughout their lives without it being connected to the religious notion of a gender identity. Where's your special category for them?

This ^

However, if a rich, able bodied, white, "lesbian," male transistioned late in life, I would feel no shame in pulling him up on how well life had treated him and how he was appropriating groups with real problems for attention. I do know two and (away from twitter) the sympathy lies almost entirely with the families and not the TW themselves.

I can't understand the idea of privilege top trumps, I don't think it makes any more sense than illness top trumps (which is fortunately seen as a bit simplistic and crass). Anyone pulling that kind of nonsense should be pulled up.

I do think dismissing it outright simply feeds into someone who thinks they are a victim. It would be much healthier to acknowledge their problems and expect ours acknowledged in return, than to just dismiss them and be dismissed in return.

I am sorry, but a transwoman who complains about the cis-privilege of a woman (and this is how it almost always plays out) has by their very argument dismissed women and our problems.

I agree it is really the absence of dysphoria that makes life easier, I wouldn't use it for everyone under the umbrella. I was only saying that I thought it was easier to be a man than a dysphoric man and in that sense it was real.

This is just nonsense. It's easier to be a man without diabetes than a man who has diabetes. It's easier to be a woman without asthma than an asthmatic woman.

Nobody thinks dysphoria is not debilitating: of course it is. But it doesn't confer class-based social privilege when it is absent in a person. Many women suffer dysphoria throughout their lives without it being connected to the religious notion of a gender identity. Where's your special category for them?

"Yes; if a transwoman wants to talk about 'cis privilege', it should be in relation to men."
YES! That is it for me, it's WHO they should be compared to. So, for example, a passing transwoman may be treated just like a woman, but has the advantage that they are possibly stronger etc. Plus not able to experience some of the disadvantages that come with female biology. A passing transman may be advantaged compared to, say, a butch lesbian. The gender-non-conforming issue hits lots of folks, not just non-passing trans people. But the passing transman will be disadvantaged compared with men, because they will probably also have to deal with issues of their female biology, whether that be dealing with it, or dealing with having certain aspects of it removed surgically. But passing transmen do also manage to accrue advantages compared to females because they are seen as male (like anecdotes about transmen who rejoin their place of employment with their new male persona, get mistaken for the brother of previous employee, with comments about how much better they are than their sister!

I seem to be arguing that actually only people who ought to significantly argue for cis-privilege (other than the simple non-trans privilege meaning) are transmen, but significantly it seems to be mostly deployed by transwomen against females. I wonder why that is...................

I do think dismissing it outright simply feeds into someone who thinks they are a victim. It would be much healthier to acknowledge their problems and expect ours acknowledged in return, than to just dismiss them and be dismissed in return.

Well said Paw.

I agree it is horribly misused but the thread was "what is cis privilege?" and I was replying to people dismissing it outright.

I agree it is really the absence of dysphoria that makes life easier, I wouldn't use it for everyone under the umbrella. I was only saying that I thought it was easier to be a man than a dysphoric man and in that sense it was real. I don't think it trumps male privilege and I don't think you can actually apply privilege status at an individual level anyway, I think they are population level measures.

I do think dismissing it outright simply feeds into someone who thinks they are a victim. It would be much healthier to acknowledge their problems and expect ours acknowledged in return, than to just dismiss them and be dismissed in return.

Off the top of my head violent assaults, being spat at, mocked in the street, overlooked at job interviews, having their gender dysphoria dismissed as a mental illness, difficulty finding a partner willing to accept them, rejection from family members, painful surgery, lifelong medication.

Join the world.

Being overlooked at job interviews. How is this ever other than a personal feeling?

Violent assaults. Please understand that small children face violent assaults every day.

Being spat at. I've been spat at.

Having their gender dysphoria dismissed as a mental illness. There is no shame in having a mental illness.

difficulty finding a partner willing to accept them Try getting a partner post menopause and having been dumped for a younger woman.

rejection from family members, There have been women sent to 'homes' for being pregnant and facing the trauma of giving birth to a child and 'giving it up' i.e forced into signing away that child for adoption.

painful surgery I'm reminded of my brother who went through painful surgery as a child.

lifelong medication Like those with type one diabetes? Or other conditions they are actually born with.

or triply (because most are trans lesbian)

Make it quadruply for late transitioners because they do not have 'passing privilege'.

And so you end up with white males, who have built a career and have children, all on the back of a woman who did all the unpaid work so they could do that, being the most oppressed demographic of all.

Transwomen always talk about cis-privilege in relation to women, though.

It may well be that trans women are disadvantaged compared to other men, but when they talk of cis privilege the implication is that trans women are doubly disadvantaged (by being trans and by being a woman) or triply (because most are trans lesbian).

I have never said that cis trumps male, or whatever else you are implying.

I am implying that the term 'cis-privilege' is fraudulent, because it encompasses all types of transpeople as the 'less advantaged', including cross-dressers who have made careers women (or black men) can only dream of and live lives as privileged as that of other white heterosexual males (possibly with a wife who raises their kids and cleans up after them).
A precise term would be 'nondysphoria privilege' but certainly not cis-priviledge.

I clearly compared men to TW in terms of advantage and women to TM - I made no comparison between TW and women.

In fact, I think the degrees of advantage are subjective if you must compare different types of privilege (which I didn't do). That it's probably easier to be a woman than a TW in the American Deep South and easier to be a TW than a woman in Iran. The effect will also vary at an individual level, that is why I didn't compare male to cis, I only compared male+cis to male-cis.

I think that a man does have it easier than a trans woman

Yes; if a transwoman wants to talk about 'cis privilege', it should be in relation to men.

Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.

I wonder where this medical condition resides.

I didn't say Pips bounce had it easier than women. I was very clear that he benefited from male privilege, but that it might have disadvantaged him, compared to other men, if he had genuine body issues when they didn't (I don't think cross dressers can claim the same problems as dysphoric people but that's a different thread). I have never said that cis trumps male, or whatever else you are implying.

Babdoc it used to be considered a mental illness (as was homosexuality) but not any longer:

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/

This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.

Basically, I get the concept, don't mind it, think it is horribly mis used and shouldn't win you any prizes, but shouting it down will just make someone think they have the moral high ground. The problem is that 'cis' is no longer shorthand for people who don't have gender dysphoria. We are being asked to accept that ciswomen are a subgroup in a broader category called women, which also includes people like Karen White and Alex Drummond.

Basically, I get the concept, don't mind it, think it is horribly mis used and shouldn't win you any prizes, but shouting it down will just make someone think they have the moral high ground.

You know, I do not buy the implicit assertion of cis-privilege that 'Pips' Bunce has it harder than any woman of his abilities working in his industry and with the same educational background. I am pretty sure, we're looking at male privilege when we look at 'Pip'.

Gender dysphoria “dismissed” as a mental illness? Are you trying to say it isn’t one? That having a delusion of being in the “wrong body” is somehow perfectly sane, despite it conflicting with physical reality? I struggle to see your logic on that.

It is the very definition of 'privilege' to grow up male and enjoy the benefits that affords you, and then claim the oppressed status of women safe in the knowledge that the vast majority of their struggles will never apply to you.

I have every sympathy with someone who has genuine gender dysphoria. I don't with someone who views womanhood as a prize to be won at the expense of biological women.

I'm not sure it can be disregarded. I think that a man does have it easier than a trans woman and a woman has it a bit easier than a trans man. I wouldn't swap places with a trans man.

The misunderstanding is that people are saying there are two groups - privileged and non privileged - and only one group should be more sensitive to the other. In fact, we are a composite of different life experiences. So a TW has the privilege of growing up male, being bigger and stronger etc. combined with unease about themselves that other men don't have. I don't think that the trans status automatically cancels out all the areas you are privileged in though, and we shouldn't be encouraging people to think that way, we should encourage people to realise there are areas they are fortunate in.

I've been very lucky with my mental health, I would listen to someone with MH problems if they tried to explain the impact it had on their lives, even if they used a term like "MH privilege." I've been less lucky with my physical health, and would hope people consider it when necessary. I wouldn't say "able bodied privilege," but the concept is the same.

Basically, I get the concept, don't mind it, think it is horribly mis used and shouldn't win you any prizes, but shouting it down will just make someone think they have the moral high ground.

Never being bullied, judged or traduced for being trans.

"Gender identity" and biological sex are not the same thing.

What about being bullied, judged or traduced for being female?

What about being systematically aborted for being female?

What about being systematically beaten, assaulted, raped and murdered for being female?

What about being systematically underpaid and discriminated against in the workplace for being female?

Using Margaret Atwood's dystopian vision of Gilead as an example, a self-identified gender fluid person - such as 'Pips' Bunce - would have the option of reclaiming their biological male sex to avoid state attention. As a biological female I wouldn't have that luxury. But yes, please do tell me more about the inherent privilege that my SEX affords me

What hardships do trans people suffer though?

Off the top of my head violent assaults, being spat at, mocked in the street, overlooked at job interviews, having their gender dysphoria dismissed as a mental illness, difficulty finding a partner willing to accept them, rejection from family members, painful surgery, lifelong medication.