What about the transmen?

What I wonder is are they really accepted as men. I mean us women are being bullied into accepting transwomen as real women but the same doesn't seem to be happening with men.

It’s insidious. So hard to see their end game. My mind can’t twist itself far enough.

ChattyLion - exactly, there are so many layers to this that haven't been examined yet. Without wishing to sound like a conspiracy theorist, on the transwidows thread it became apparent that a lot of the MTF partners of the women posting work in IT, so they will no doubt already see the importance of how we use labels to organise data within algorithms. AI is omnipresent in day to day applications and the internet, for generating statistics etc and will only increase in its usage for generating statistics and informing new policies.

CockBlocker your research area literally just made me shiver: I'm doing a bit of research on this and it's implications for artificial intelligence.

The only protection actual women have left if the mantra anyone can ‘be’ a woman.. is the common sense of people who know full well that TWATW and WAW. Two different categories with different needs. If a computer programme or robot or algorithm or whatever thinks that TWAW then actual women are fucked. And actually so are transwomen because their needs won’t be met either. Shit.

KatVonGulag
DD trans bestie doesn't want to go in male spaces, or in fact to be near males at all. Has no stereotypical male interests. Just doesn't want to be a girl.

What a shame for teen girls, I have heard similar from teen re girl at girls' school who doesn't want to join the boys but says she's a boy. I may be being a little simplistic but I feel a decent psychologist ought to be able to root this out and get these girls having some sort of counselling/talking therapy instead. IF there was any inclination to take this route which it seems there isn't.
I'm sure it would be a good area for research.

BardyBlar - I'm doing a bit of research on this and it's implications for artificial intelligence. There could be far greater implications than have yet been imagined for replacing the language so that women = women + TW + everyone else that fancies it. That's yet another reason why it's so important we don't use their language and keep on defining man and woman on biological terms.

Well, they're the ones requiring us to be called menstruators, pregnant people, people with cervixes, etc., aren't they?

I think this is a misconception Grace. It’s often put about by TRAs that these phrases are about inclusion, but note that men are never called prostate owners or similar. If it was genuinely about inclusion, there’s no way TW would allow themselves to be excluded like this.

The converse is actually true. Women is replaced with other words as women must never, ever be used to mean women. It must always be used to mean “women plus anyone who identifies as a woman”. It’s all about changing the meaning of the word woman.

Trans man I meant.

I have a trans male friend who used to be a lesbian and radical feminist. They now post about how evil TERFs are. I find it incredibly strange how there can have been such a switch, it makes me feel distrustful because I don't know who the real person is, though when I look back I think they always struggled a bit with their own sense of themselves (sexual abuse as a child, in an abusive adult relationship).

That women and girls get no attention unless it's about being beautiful or sexual

Yes this. I've been very overweight at some stages of my life. I'm not now. As a bigger person there have been times I have literally felt invisible around men. I had no idea how much so until I lost a lot of weight. Suddenly I seem to be a person again now I look thinner. It's extraordinary.

I can see the appeal of being enby or trans male if it works in the same way to switch off the male gaze.

And yes to there being a uniform. It's very cute and youthful. Trans men do look very like teenage boys. It will be interesting to see what they look like as forty and 50 year olds.

I saw a sad post by tranmales asking for more acknowledgement. Their trans sisters started shouting them down... "men get enough attention" etc. Bizarre.

They only seem to be in the debate at all when pregnant / menstruating.

DD trans bestie doesn't want to go in male spaces, or in fact to be near males at all. Has no stereotypical male interests. Just doesn't want to be a girl.

This isn't going to sound nice but while transmen in their late teens/early 20s can have that edgy androgynous look I'm guessing that it doesn't age well without significant plastic surgery.

Also what could you do about a broad pelvis? I don't think there is cosmetic treatment for that and you can't diet away bone.

To me Stephen Whittle in those photos may pass as male but I'd suspect some kind of growth or endocrine disorder TBH.

There was a thread on this a while back started by someone who posts as Stephen Whittle (I assume it's genuine, but I might be being gullible) which might interest you

here

I agree that with facial hair and/or male pattern head hair, more trans men pass than trans women. That said, the photo of Caitlyn Jenner next to Stephen Whittle is striking.

Rebecca I think you might be confusing transmen who are biological women with transwomen who are biological men.

Yes, the difference with transmen (biological females) is they are not usually a threat to women and definitely not a threat to men if they go into men's spaces.

While transwomen have been show to still statistically offend at the same rates as men and therefore are considered in the same way as other biological men.

jgrobinson that's very eye-opening

There aren't that many in comparison to everyone else in the population. Those who have completed trans'd just get on with it, they don't have a dick, they have some sort of vagina so they do their best and accept what they cannot accomplish in terms of sexual relationships.

The ones objected to by many women are the ones who are still quite obviously men.

So someone who is biologically female suggested these tactics?!

Transmen like James Morton and Stephen Whittle have done a lot of damage behind the scenes with regards to the GRA.

It was the despicable wolf in sheep’s clothing Morton who suggested that TRAs pretend to care about women’s and children’s rights on social media by eg retweeting women’s orgs.

I think thats a reasonable description of the Yogyakarta Principles, Ida. At least as far as the gender identity component is concerned. The sexual orientation aspect seems quite reasonable, but the 'gender identity' component goes much further than just a demand for full and equal human rights, and becomes a demand that governments recognise everyone's gender identity on all official documentation.

Am I right in describing The Yogyakarta Principles as a set of ideological principles that certain factions believe should be imposed on societies around the world without democratic due process, or is that an unfair characterisation?

Sorry to forget James Morton, who leads the Scottish Trans Alliance. Morton has revolutionized institutions in Scotland, including literally writing the rules for the prison service (the Word document on trans prisoners used by the prison service shows 'James Morton' as the author under file properties).

I don't see them kicking up a fuss and demanding anything.

Leslie Feinberg's Transgender Warriors (1996) was a founding manifesto of transgenderism.

Stephen Whittle created the Gender Recognition Act and orchestrated the Women & Equalities Committee's report as special adviser. Whittle also was responsible for the Yogyakarta Principles which among things erase sexual orientation.

Jay Stewart, the prime mover behind Gendered Intelligence, has been extraordinarily effective in putting rapists in women's prisons, indoctrinating the university system, etc.

Any one of them has achieved more than Paris Lees, Munroe Bergdorf, Shon Faye, Lily Madigan et al. put together. Indeed, one might that the latter essentially served as a goady distraction while the transmen worked quietly to revolutionize institution.

It seems from comments they make in their videos "props" like glasses and caps seem to send a "male" signal from a quick glance. These people are so young, and they read as young teen boys, often even into their mid 20s so I wonder how things will be once they really can't pass as a teen anymore? How does that affect your identity?

Is sex with a transman a fantasy for some heterosexual men, as a way of having a 'gay' experience whilst still being straight? Men who have sex with transwomen prostitutes often excuse this as a non-homosexual act also, and the TWAW mantra legitimises this. So much points towards assuaging male guilt - men encroaching on female territory and asserting dominance under the guise of femininity.