What about the transmen?

I suppose a transwoman has the option of glamming up with make up, nails, long hair and dresses and being tall is an advantage here. I can't think what the equivalent would be for a transman unless they were lucky enough to have a naturally tall masculine appearance.

I expect most look more like LeFou than Gaston.

iirc, Sheila Jeffreys argues that transmen are typically overlooked because they are at the lowest point in the sex caste system. I have a vague feeling that she expounded on this at one of the WPUK or similar meetings and there's a video. Does this ring a bell for anyone else?

It looks like Morton and Whittle might be interesting instances where they are very influential in a fairly invisible way (as in, under the radar) whereas other transmen tend towards the invisible.

I question what ‘living as a woman’ means also.

Indeed!

So I can't be a TERF because I'm technically living as a man
I love it - perfect debate ammo

VisitorsEntrance
I'm glad you clarified because I was about to challenge you, less politely, on the same thing.

In my opinion the whole ‘I don’t like pink fluffy things therefore I am male’ thing is the worst kind of stereotypical nonsense.

I completely agree Eadie.

I question what ‘living as a woman’ means also.

Someone who is trans, but hasn’t had any operation will say they are ‘living as a man/woman’ because then wear the clothes of the opposite sex and behave in stereotypical ways for that sex.

It's still, however, stereotypical nonsense.

The only way you can "live as a man" is if you are, in fact, biologically a man.

So...having short hair and only wearing trousers, jumpers, t-shirts and shirts maketh a person a 'man', eh?

That is the exact opposite of what I was trying to say.

Someone who is trans, but hasn’t had any operation will say they are ‘living as a man/woman’ because then wear the clothes of the opposite sex and behave in stereotypical ways for that sex.
How is that different to a lesbian who has relationships with women, doesn’t wear any of the stereotypical trappings of being a woman and does a typically male job?
That lesbian will not say she is a man yet everything that she is doing is what a trans man will do and say they are a man.

I know a number of older women, mostly lesbians, who never use make up, have their hair short, only ever wear trousers, jumpers, t-shirts and shirts. Other than pissing standing up they are living as men.

So...having short hair and only wearing trousers, jumpers, t-shirts and shirts maketh a person a 'man', eh?

Allow me to say I think that's stereotypical nonsense.

There was a transman at a place that I used to work. He was a bald, bearded, overweight, middle aged short guy and had been married to his wife for over ten years. He passes as a man so is a bit invisible.

There's been a 4000% increase in girls being referred to gender clinics.

The trans lobby would have us believe all those girls would have been trans in previous generations too, it's just that we're more accepting now.

I would have been one of those girls but now I'm a middle aged woman perfectly comfortable in my female body (well I'd like it to be a bit less knackered but definitely not male)

And yes there seems to be a very intense and deliberate push to redefine and break down the boundaries of the word women. Posie is right on the money, that’s where we need to focus because losing our own right to self definition is extremely dangerous.

I think and I hope she is expanding that campaign, because most women are no idea this is happening. I will definitely be willing to keep crowdfunding her efforts to keep this debate in the public eye.

The word “Women” is where they should be “no debate” it should never include people with penises.

We cannot speak for Transmen but the general impression from videos on YouTube that they create is most are not socializing with men, most seem to continue to socialize with women and the LBTQ folk, although again not those who are heterosexual men I.e, majority of men.

The very small percentage that are tall and pass very successfully as a heterosexual guy will go into spaces with “regular guys”. The majority who will pass perhaps as shorter, young, pubescent males stay out of those spaces because they won’t pass with men and won’t feel safe.

@Sawdust, I agree, there are men and women but I think the trans ideology reduces people to men and non-men by lumping everyone who doesn't identify as male into the then meaningless women category.

Jrobinson i've been reflecting on your post about the actual achievements of transmen. I think my 'poor little transmen' post is a good example of my own sexist stereotyping of transmen as women, who therefore to me must be gentle and suffering and silenced. What if girls who find they are excellent organisers, objective, coolheaded and focused, experience either the physical visibility of being a teenage girl overriding all that, or the kind of 'ooh aren't you brainy' patronisation that girls who attempt to use their voices get, or that they are blocked from achieving much by institutional sexism until they present as male? Suddenly they are physically invisible and judged only on their achievements, and they find a huge liberation in that.

They just don’t believe they are men

Good for them.

I think for older women it has always been much easier to ‘live as a man’ whilst still being a woman, if you see what I mean.
I know a number of older women, mostly lesbians, who never use make up, have their hair short, only ever wear trousers, jumpers, t-shirts and shirts. Other than pissing standing up they are living as men. They just don’t believe they are men.

Are a 'non-man' ?

I don't recognise that. What is it ? As far as I am concerned adult humans are either men or women.

Only if you're a man. The rest of us are just non-men

It seems to matter not a jot which way up you stack gender, the biological sex hierarchy will always manifest more strongly than gender ID.

So the reality of biological sex is recognised over self-defined gender ?

TBH Chili that's what I suspected

I think I read somewhere that transmen are only ever really considered as "lads" (as in eg stable lad, not as a colloquial synonym for men). They never acquire the full status of men.

It seems to matter not a jot which way up you stack gender, the biological sex hierarchy will always manifest more strongly than gender ID. Pointing at transmen's perceived privilege over TW smacks of classic DARVO to me.

Absolutely- it scares the crap out of me. And you are all absolutely right. Where are women and girls in all of this?

Also - where are all the transmen?

There's been a 4000% increase in girls being referred to gender clinics.

The trans lobby would have us believe all those girls would have been trans in previous generations too, it's just that we're more accepting now.

Well if that's true - where's the 4000% rise in middle aged transwomen?