Why can’t all women see the dangers?

I have a friend who flat out refuses to accept there can be any danger, because she hasn't experienced it. More than that, she goes on to dismiss everyone who mentions concerns and says we're basically making it up. A real woke-maiden.

All wrapped in this strangely uber-reasonable tone of "you too could all be as cool and accepting as me if only you tried".

So more than once recently I have been ITCHING to comment on her own posts about a very serious women's issue in her area with "nah, I think you're brewing a storm in a teacup, I've seen no evidence of that at all"

(if it weren't for the fact I find it easy to believe her when she says it is a big deal, and there will be women affected negatively by it)

the insistence on constant "groupwork" .. emphasis on consensus and fitting in over anything else. Also the idea promoted by some education ideologues that children can learn as much from each other as from the teacher or from a textbook.

I agree -worrying.

DD2, 9, was put in group recently- she ended up doing the reseach producing the slides and being given the smallest amount to present ie read out her hand written notes to go with her sliodes- the two boys taking most of it and her being told to go along with it.

They were told it was great group work - not two boys being allowed to share credit for her work.

ResistanceIsNecessary Oh Gawd, Im a bugger for typos yes beware Italian ham is taking over the world.
Right Im going to shut up now, I don't want to derail.

These social networks and hiveminds have been pandered to for so long now, and are viewed as having primacy over actual learning in education.

Yes, I agree. The insistence on constant "groupwork" in education really worries me, as it seemed to be undermining DD2's confidence in coming to her own opinions. Promoting an emphasis on consensus and fitting in over anything else. Also the idea promoted by some education ideologues that children can learn as much from each other as from the teacher or from a textbook. The absence of textbooks. The promotion of postmodernist views about the fluidity of reality in her humanities courses.

Gulags off topic I know but I did smile when I saw your post. Big Parma (mmm, lovely ham...)

Flowers Dr Healy is worth having a look at too, re Big Parma

imhu.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/Dr-Healy_Challenges-Big-Pharma.pdf

FlowersAndHerts its a very good book, I found it fascinating and well written.

Thank you, I'll order that book. (I've actually got a degree in biology, so am really interested in the subject, but research on the brain has moved on since I last studied the subject!)

These social networks and hiveminds have been pandered to for so long now, and are viewed as having primacy over actual learning in education.

II'm starting to think there is something wrong with education and learning in schools.

Certainly a lot of the gender roles stuff and lately trans stuff comes from the schools for my children. Last 6 months trans stuff come into my children schools – it’s a very working class area wasn’t a big thing suddenly one of DD1 friends changed names to a male one – as have a few others in the upper years.

DD1, 13, watches a lot of history programs and was horrified to learn that many of her peers had no idea who the suffragettes were and what they did - that’s' despite a big anniversary.

Not to mention the constant surpise that our children want to continue learning about things outside school and asking questions - as if they are somehow abnormal as if once the topic and test sat that's it.

The brain thing relies on you knowing some stuff about how your brain works and develops. The way you are wired owes a lot to your experience. Its also a very clever thing; if you have some sort of brain injury it is possible for your brain to 'rewire' itself by making new connections around your brain.

Its a bit like how a path is formed. Its down to how much footfall and traffic a particular route has. If you have a very different life experience due to your sex, your brain might well develop and form in a different way.

The idea of male and female brains needs to eliminate this effect in order to say there is something innate and its not down to socialisation and gender stereotypes.

Good luck finding anything that manages that.

in looking at any research I would suggest looking at where the funding is from. A really good book on Big Parma is called Crazy Like Us.
www.amazon.co.uk/Crazy-Like-Us-Globalization-Western/dp/1849015775?linkCode=xm2&SubscriptionId=AKIAILSHYYTFIVPWUY6Q&creativeASIN=1849015775&tag=mumsnetforum-21&creative=165953&camp=2025

I need to research this brain thing some more. Can anyone point me towards any good sources to start me off (I've got to get some work done today!)? Thank you.

Women don't see the dangers for the same reason men don't see the dangers.

We have all been moulded by the society we live in. This isn't in itself bad; it's just how society works. We're all indoctrinated into broadly aligning with the social norms of our society because otherwise we couldn't function cohesively as a society.

Unfortunately our particular society (like most others) is predicated on the concept of male supremacy. The inferiority of females - posited to justify millennia of ongoing oppression - is built into the entire damned thing. It invests nearly every facet of our society and our culture. And we have all been indoctrinated to accept it since birth.

It's the proverbial not seeing the wood for the trees.

Our minds have been primed to accept the legitimacy of female inferiority and the corresponding male superiority. This is so naturalised, so normalised, that our brains don't even recognise it if it's not overt. Our brains are actually doing exactly what they're supposed to here - moulding themselves to allow us to function within whatever society we've got.

She said there'd been research that shows transwomen have brains more like women. I asked her to email me that research, but she hasn't yet!"

How do you prove its inherent not due to socialisation, even if there are 'male' and 'female' brains.

I wasn't aware we were doing a large scale research programme involving brain scans starting with 3 and 4 year olds with no medical reason and following them through their lives. Mainly because that type of research carries lots of ethical problems...

I was talking to a man who said 'we're all pretty equal now & why exclude?'. I wasn't getting far. Later though he was extolling the value of Uber (quite new still up north !). I said I wouldn't use Uber on my own as their driver checks are worthless. The penny dropped and he admitted that wasn't even on his radar as a 6 foot tall man. Blissful ignorance of day to day reality.

She said there'd been research that shows transwomen have brains more like women. I asked her to email me that research, but she hasn't yet!

There is some research showing that gay men have certain "feminised" areas of the brain. Ask your daughter if the study she is thinking of controlled for homosexuality (it didn't because none of the ones they trumpet did).

And other research showing the area of the brain dealing with body image may be slightly different in some transgender people.

Neither have anything to do with girl brain or boy brain or indicate wrong body syndrome nonsense.

These social networks and hiveminds have been pandered to for so long now, and are viewed as having primacy over actual learning in education. No one has been allowed to challenge that for years. Hopefully here we have the crux on which events will turn and common sense return.

Gronky Post c-section I literally couldn't even sit up for 24 hours and was catheterised. The room was so small that a visitor at the next bed meant no space to walk round the bed and if the curtain was drawn it was basically draped around the visitor's shoulders. So privacy & dignity was missing most hours of the day, if you had added night to that it would have been intolerable. Not least because in those first 24 hours I couldn't even pick DS up I could only drag him across from cot to bed.

in an age of social media, very few have actually read any investigative journalism either - relying instead on snippets of information and links that are circulated

THAT is a very useful point. The same thing has been implicated in Brexit. Mustn't listen to experts, must we, when someone's friend told someone's friend told someone's neighbour over the fence (or over the border in case of Russian trolls) is so much more reliable.

If someone tells you that humans can change biological sex just say 'go on then - show me. Do it and I'll give you £1m'.

Flowers & Hearts:

"You are right about brainwashed. My teenage DD is completely brainwashed, and just won't discuss the issue. I keep chipping away with logic. Yesterday, I asked her how she could believe people could change sex, when she was doing biology A-level. She said there'd been research that shows transwomen have brains more like women. I asked her to email me that research, but she hasn't yet!"

That seems to be because the pro trans ideology is so full of inherent contradictions, fatal flaws and articles of faith that no logical reasoned response can ever be provided. I don't think I've seen one exponent of self ID ever directly answer a question, or engage with the substantive debate. They do not engage at all.The just return to mantras and to repeating the party line. It is truly madness.

I spent part of the weekend with a very well-known woman TV newsreader who "disagreed" that there are only 2 sexes, citing a trans man she knows. I explained that humankind is a dimorphic species. You can identify as anything you want, but you cannot change sex. She got uncomfortable and looked around for someone else to talk to.

Jurgens cat:

"I do think that you have an unrealistic view of other women though. Some kind of sisterhood mentality. It's like me asking myself 'why did so many poorer people vote for Brexit?' The answer is that it's complicated. Some don't understand the issues. Some don't want to understand them. Some people are driven by biases and prejudice. Some just don't see the world the way that I do. I do often see women on here saying 'feminists are not a bloody hive mind!' I think that applies in this particular case too. You put women upon a pedestal as some beacon of rationality and clear though, and really, they aren't. They are just humans with their own quirks and thoughts."

The 'sisterhood' mentality you speak of is based not on a lack of recognition of individuality in women, bit on an awareness of their 'group' position in a patriarchal society. and as with your Brexiteer point, it matters not that we all agree on Remain/Brexit, but that we will all suffer/enjoy the same consequences regardless of our individual viewpoint.

It is difficult to see the wood when you are lost in the trees; and most of us are too busy being lost in the trees to get a more realistic overview.

I am supportive of all of those women, and I fight for all of those women, even if they do not see that they need my support. I fight for my daughter and my granddaughter too; and for future generations. That is sisterhood

You are right about brainwashed. My teenage DD is completely brainwashed, and just won't discuss the issue. I keep chipping away with logic. Yesterday, I asked her how she could believe people could change sex, when she was doing biology A-level. She said there'd been research that shows transwomen have brains more like women. I asked her to email me that research, but she hasn't yet!

As far as younger women are concerned, I'm imagining that very few of them have read any classic feminist texts, or probably any political texts at all. Furthermore in an age of social media, very few have actually read any investigative journalism either - relying instead on snippets of information and links that are circulated amongst their social & friendship & groups.

In a culture where people are only reading & being exposed to that with which they already agree; or which they have been led to agree with, and where unpopular views are banned from university campuses, many are just not exposed to a full range of views or voices.

I browsed my local university bookshop last week, and came across several 'pro trans' texts, but no gender critical or feminist texts. I brought this up with a member of staff and they said that they would " talk to the LGBT officer" about it. Every department, and every institution, has such an officer, it seems - and they are very influential.

I fear that younger women are going to have to invent the wheel again, when they come across situations which make them feel uncomfortable or unsupported, and when they've had enough of the inherent dissonance of maintaining support for a system and way of thinking that essentially undermines them as women.

I came across a couple of younger women recently, when out walking. I was giving out FPFW leaflets. One of the women, who had a very young baby in a pram, rejected the leaflet immediately when she realised it related to trans-rights. she told me that being a woman was " in your head". i said, " No, it's not, it's in your body - you've got a baby....". Face palm, brick wall.......brainwashed.