TG day of remembrance

You seem to be saying that any transpeople being hurt and attacked is nothing to do with being trans. Denying it happens. "Well, it would have happened anyway. and not because they're trans."
What, nobody, anywhere, has a problem with transpeople and they're not subject to name calling, being hit etc?

That is NOT what I am saying. You are missing exactly the point which I am trying to make - which is about nuance and context!

I am not "denying it happens". Where have I done that? And you have put a quote in about it happening anyway regardless of them being trans when I have said nothing of the sort.

What I am trying to illustrate here is that you don't know that the crime was committed specifically because a person was - or is - trans. But that if a victim of crime was also engaged in a known high risk occupation such as sex work, then leaving that detail out and only focusing on their gender identity, is potentially misleading. Again, context is key.

No you’ve called our opinions, ‘vile’

Then that's not a personal attack if I have said a differing COLLECTIVE viewpoint is vile, is it?
I'm not getting personal.

People can't do with the braying pack mentality.

Funny because you’re all still here! And ‘pack mentality’, really? Sorry you find debate so distressing. It must be hard to have your opinions challenged when you’re used to the ‘no questions’ type environment

Don't move the goalposts. The Trans Day of Remembrance is for victims of transphobic murder. Not for people who've 'been attacked'. Go look it up if you don't believe me.

This was posted yesterday and yet we are still debating what the day is for ffs

No you’ve called our opinions, ‘vile’ and agreed with another commentor telling us we should be ashamed.

That's called having a different opinion. Then you (collective you) wonder why you're left with an echo chamber. People can't do with the braying pack mentality.
Have I called you ridiculous? No.

You’re not being ‘personally attacked’ for disagreeing. Nobody is ‘attacking’ you. I think your behaviour here and inability to follow logic and reasoning, is ridiculous. You have made your feelings known about us in this thread also, and in many other threads.

We are specifically talking about murders, as that’s what the day of rememberance is for.

People who are trans are clearly hurt and attacked - yes. But the point being questioned is whether it is true to say that they are hurt and attacked because they are trans

You seem to be saying that any transpeople being hurt and attacked is nothing to do with being trans. Denying it happens. "Well, it would have happened anyway. and not because they're trans."
What, nobody, anywhere, has a problem with transpeople and they're not subject to name calling, being hit etc?
If they do get hurt it's not because they're trans? There are people out there with a problem against them, you surely cannot deny it's existence.

To try to co-opt the murder of Sophie Lancaster as a 'trans' killing is fucking low indeed

FGS, nobody has done that at all. Sorry, but what are you talking about?
If you're referring to someone upthread mentioning her, it was clear that it meant she was killed just for being her. So called "different." Not co-opting as a trans killing at all, can't you see that?
A hate crime is a hate crime. Just saying they both would be.
Transpeople are entitled to a day of remembrance for other transpeople attacked or assaulted.
Which does happen.

To try to co opt the murder of Sophie Lancaster as a 'trans' murder is fucking low indeed.

Why personal attacks just because I'm disagreeing with you?

I think there is a line between seeing things from a different perspective and actively misrepresenting facts (I'm not suggesting that you are doing this, but using it as a point to illustrate an issue around the wider debate).

People who are trans are clearly hurt and attacked - yes. But the point being questioned is whether it is true to say that they are hurt and attacked because they are trans.

Let's be clear; people being hurt and attacked for any reason is wrong and deplorable. But if someone has been hurt and attacked for being a sex worker and they also happen to be trans, then it would be misleading to say they were attacked for being trans and not mention the fact that they were a sex worker. This is particularly relevant if the murder rate for sex workers overall is significantly higher than the rest of the population. Going back to Brazil, a significant number of transpeople are involved in sex work - does their trans status or their occupation place them at higher risk? Correlation does not equal causation.

Surely, every murder is because the person is being themselves?

To try to co-opt the murder of Sophie Lancaster as a 'trans' killing is fucking low indeed.

No. Now you must stop twisting things. Nobody said trans people don’t get murdered at all. But not because they’re trans most of the time. The link you’re referring to, or the person sadly killed, was not a result of transphobia. Stop saying it was

Unless you were the perpetrator, you wouldn't 100% sure know what the motive was behind it, would you? People who are trans clearly are hurt and attacked. Despite people saying "literally never happens."
It clearly does.
I'm not twisting anything.
Just seeing things from a different point of view which clearly isn't liked on here.

That fucking tweet from Munroe: 'statistically I only have 4 years left to live, this is why transwomen need access to women's spaces' gives me the absolute rage every time I see it!

Yes it is. Unfortunately it’s precisely because certain people aren’t capable of any critical thinking, or following ours, that we get the ‘rage’

No rage here. Just a feeling of sadness instead,I assure you.
Why get the rage just because someone disagrees with you?

The missing nuance here was the fact that the statistic was taken from a survey of Brazilian TW sex workers. Therefore Munroe - as a middle-class British transwoman with a media profile and platform - was highly unlikely to be within the same risk category as a Brazilian transwoman engaged in sex work as a way of keeping food on the table

Thank you for pointing this out.

This thread simply illustrates the rage induced when any critical thinking is applied to any aspect of this subject.

Yes it is. Unfortunately it’s precisely because certain people aren’t capable of any critical thinking, or following ours, that we get the ‘rage’.

It’s perfectly reasonable to have a day to compassionately and sympathetically think about people other than those you know personally.

I completely agree, but that wasn't my point. I'll use the example of Munroe Bergdorf's tweet (source here) earlier this year. It stated that statistically they would only live for another 4 years, because the life expectancy for transwomen of colour is 35 years. The implication being that TW of colour are killed at such a rate that their overall life expectancy is sharply reduced as a result and that violence against transpeople needed to be addressed as a priority.

The missing nuance here was the fact that the statistic was taken from a survey of Brazilian TW sex workers. Therefore Munroe - as a middle-class British transwoman with a media profile and platform - was highly unlikely to be within the same risk category as a Brazilian transwoman engaged in sex work as a way of keeping food on the table.

Context is key; by tweeting about the statistic Munroe was, at best, being disingenuous, by co-opting a problem that was not theirs to take. If there is no transparency then you are not only taking someone else's tragedy and using it for your own purposes, but you are denying that person their voice and the opportunity to raise the profile of their issues.

Had the suggestion been to visibly call out the number of transwomen engaged in sex work and suffering higher rates of violence and murder as a result, then that would have been transparent. Leaving out those details suggests to an uninformed and casual observer, that there is an unchecked and rising tide of violence within the UK against transpeople - which simply isn't true. Whether the oversight is accidental or deliberate is not for me to say. I have however, already called out that concern for the murder rate of Brazilian transwomen sex workers feels completely at odds with the prevailing view of Stonewall, Amnesty and most trans-activists, that prostitution should be legalised - when it has been demonstrated that the Nordic model would actually be more beneficial. That would be the Nordic model that feminists are labelled as 'SWERFs' for promoting.

We've had "literally doesn't happen" then some links to show yes,actually it does.

No. Now you must stop twisting things. Nobody said trans people don’t get murdered at all. But not because they’re trans most of the time. The link you’re referring to, or the person sadly killed, was not a result of transphobia. Stop saying it was.

When actually the most terrifying thing that's likely to happen to you is seeing a few T-shirts sporting dictionary definitions

You know that how? On any other behaviours of assaults on MN there would be a cry of "minimising!" with that statement.
We've had "literally doesn't happen" then some links to show yes,actually it does.
Now it's don't be daft, the most you're likely to get is seeing a tshirt."

Normally with remembrance, we use it to remind people what happened and how. A remembrance that deliberately obfuscates what happened and how - painting it as people killed just for being like us when the situation is far more complex - is problematic.

It is the scaremongering aspect too, how must that feel for young people considering their identity, who in fact are very safe in this country, to be told that people are being killed just for being trans. It feeds into the us Vs them rhetoric. If you think you might be killed for being trans you're much more likely to go around in gangs with "face coverings" and baseball bats. When actually the most terrifying thing that's likely to happen to you is seeing a few T-shirts sporting dictionary definitions.

This thread simply illustrates the rage induced when any critical thinking is applied to any aspect of this subject.

By the same people that call Karen Ingala Smith a t*.

Fae actually tweeted that Hersi's death was the fault of women speaking at the time it happened.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3207407-Naomi-Hersi-transwoman-murdered-in-London?pg=2

Earlier thread.