R4 World at One: Janice Turner and Helen Belcher

( @mimivanne I've just realised that my PM function isn't working from my tablet - I'll try from a PC when I get a chance. )

I can't wrap my head around the degree of cognitive dissonance required to look at Belcher and pretend you see a woman. How does the urge to be honest about what they're seeing not overwhelm people, like that scene in Austin Powers with the giant mole?

I listened to this with someone who is only vaguely aware of the issues. They felt that Turner was clear and coherent. Belcher not so much. Plenty of inconsistencies. Eyebrows raised at 'some people think that transwomen are men'. Response: 'but they are, though'.

I hope that Janice Turner sues. Belcher appears to have no evidence whatsoever for their disgusting accusations.

BettyDuMonde its a bit early I know but . Im so delighted to know you & your sister's had a clear result.

This needs to said often:
You can’t identify out of women’s cancers

The complete hypocrisy of HB talking about how damaging it is for identities to be undermined, when they are trying to redefine the very meaning of woman without consent

This came across quite strongly to me.

I've always wondered about what used to be called Munchausen's by Proxy tbh.

This was the first thing my friend said when I was describing puberty blockers and the medical pathway for trans kids to her. She has a lot going on in her home life at the mo, so didn’t feel she had the headspace to engage in the GRA debate but was troubled by the medicalisation aspect.

The lesbians aren't women argument can be found in Monique Witting's writing. I believe she puts forward that a woman is always defined in relation to men, and is heterosexual, therefore lesbians do not fit into society's definition of woman. That's the ~french feminism angle. I'm also remind of sexology and good ol Havelock Ellis who of course helped popularise the concept of the 'invert'

Yes thank you betty, boobing him back to sleep as we speak and likely allll night long.

The sheet that was send detaining everything tested (and thankfully clear) was what was so striking, the listed chromosomes etc. It did occur to me at the time too that the option to know the sex could be problematic in some communities but you were told if you wanted sex linked disorders checked (though perhaps you could ask to be checked but we'd not revealed unless necessary).

mimi I'd love to see any you find. Maybe we could PM each other and I could give you a researcher's academic email? Or point you to a website or something like that.

Good news, Betty - glad to hear it, though for your DM.

(It's a fucker - a friend of mine had breast cancer in her 30s and turned out to be positive for BRCA2 - she had a prophylactic double mastectomy. )

Excellent news :)

I’ve recently been through BRCA2 testing - my mum had it, it was 50/50 (depending on which of her two X chromosomes I inherited) as to whether I had it too.

Fortunately both my sister and I are free of the gene fault (and thus, so are our daughters) but it’s certainly brought home the whole ‘sex is immutable’ thing for us.

You can’t identify out of women’s cancers.

Ida
I was at blue gate
I had some photos but I've moved a few times and I haven't seen them for a while.I'll have a look see.

I had amniocentesis with DC2. It's a chromosomal test that detects sex chromosomes. Nothing was 'assigned at birth'. He's a male human.

How he performs gender is his business.

Neuro - I sincerely hope your story ended happily

*dna

Yup.

The assigned rubbish was utterly clarified for me exactly a year ago when my then 11 week old foetus' dns was tested (from mine) and one of the things they looked at were sex linked conditions, all of which were chromosomal and included intersex such as xxy as many (not all) often have accompanying difficulties. Androgen insensitivity syndrome would have also been detected at 20 weeks as the sex was determined at 11. (Harmony test).

BettyduMonde absolutely.

mimi Red Gate was where we landed up. Lovely 'dirty' women :) . Have you got any photos? They are quite sought after now by a new generation of researchers trying to unpick the myths.

I agree.

I think the ‘assigned at birth’ phrasing is probably one of the things that made Mumsnet such an apt place to discuss this - most of us are parents (although not all!) and as such we are well aware that it’s been possible to identify a baby’s sex from the 20 week scan onwards for 20 odd years already (and now it’s even earlier. And anyone who has been through genetic sampling to avoid passing on an inherited disease knows it’s possible to identify the sex of a blastocyst during the IVF process).

Can I just make the point about the 'assigned at birth' with a 3 second inspection thing.

My sibling has had chromosome tests, scans and allsorts of other tests. In everyone they have come back as perfectly normal.

This is trying to muddy the waters between trans and intersex by suggesting there is still a possibility that something was missed in a 3 second check.

Its appropriation.

Tried a google search for ‘lesbians aren’t women’ - couldn't find anything to support Belcher’s claims - just some recent articles about how lesbians can have penises and some older ones about arguing about whether lesbianism is ‘real’ (meaning innate and immutable) or not.

Seems to me that now is the point in history where some people are arguing that lesbians aren’t (all) women - although that only works if you subscribe to both the (conflicting) ideas of Transwomen being eligible for ‘lesbian’ status AND Transwomen being men. That seems like a difficult jumble of cognitive dissonance to hold in one brain.

Ida
Another Greenham woman, absolutely right, Orange Gate?, not sure after so many years !

Well, I do remember people saying lesbians were blokeish and "not real women", yeah. Generally people like the Sun's Gary Bushell, iirc and/or women who decried the decline of femininity and being ladylike. Was quite a common trope at one time, especially if you lived round our way.

To be fair, Midwifes are evil bastards who routinely cut up fannies and misassign sex to innocent infants.

Midwives are also responsible for swapping human babies with changelings. Fact.

And that's why it's a safeguarding issue.

I've always wondered about what used to be called Munchausen's by Proxy tbh.

That's is a very telling point Placemats. It should definitely be noted: that the TRAs say if kids don't get medical transition they will commit suicide. But adult trans now overwhelmingly don't want it.

What it really means as we know is that only a small number of adults are actually truly dysphoric.

And it is even more chilling re kids.They dont know whar the loss of fertility and sexual function is: especially if they have been on puberty blockers. They are influenced by the adults in their life and social contacts. So if a high proportion of trans kids go for medical transition, it must be for reasons other than dysphoria.