'Rapid-onset gender dysphoria' is a poisonous lie used to discredit trans people' guardian article

Autism is a lifelong condition. If there were clusters of teenagers suddenly exhibiting autistic traits I’d like that looked into.

It wouldn’t undermine my ‘identity’ (whatever that is) as an autistic if it was discovered that there were people presenting with similar traits but who had an entirely different history.

Autism is defined by the traits, not the etiology. There may, in fact, be many causes. The same is true for gender dysphoria. And until it has been studied, one of those causes may be social contagion.

Most, for instance, aren’t dissatisfied with their bodies. Many of them are plastering photos of their bodies all over the Internet.

I'd say that was less true of teens and of girls/women except for pictures of pre/post surgery; of course there's still the issue of whether a body dysphoria is really a gender dysphoria.

As I'm not an expert, I don't really know what SHOULD be in a set of criteria but at a minimum I'd say it has to include some expression (as in, expressed to another person) of dissatisfaction with the child's actual body.

This part of the diagnostic criteria seems to have vanished from discussion.

Most, for instance, aren’t dissatisfied with their bodies. Many of them are plastering photos of their bodies all over the Internet.

A 2015 US study found that 4.3% of people 18 and below visit the emergency room for sport-related injuries.

I’d keep an eye on that figure.

Now that male bodied athletes will be playing contact sports against female bodied athletes that percentage is going to go through the roof.

@bespin you work with children? How does that correlate with you citing an article by someone who talks as demonstrated in QuietContraryMary's post.

You, who work with children, and are so keen to dismiss distressing experiences of children on the basis of a person like that?

What is wrong with you?

I've "discussed" this on Twitter with various TRAs who tend to say "oh I didn't tell anyone or do anything until I was a teen because my parents were so awful".
So this means they did not meet the diagnostic criteria for GD until they were a teenager.
But they now say that yes they are and always have been gender dysphoric i.e. meeting the diagnostic criteria - the criteria which include obligatory visible expressions of dysphoria/gender non-conformity in order to be met in full.

Thing is, you can't have it both ways.
You can't have diagnostic criteria which you meet now, didn't meet then, and then complain that the criteria are wrong. Either you go by the criteria (and you are now officially GD) or you scrap the criteria entirely (and go for new ones which, according to these TRAs, would probably be entirely subjective - no, that is not going to wash in the DSM).

However personally I would argue that the criteria do NOT indicate gender dysphoria in most young people - because having long hair (as a boy), having friends of the opposite sex, and playing with non-gender-stereotyped toys should NOT be indicators of gender dysphoria.

As I'm not an expert, I don't really know what SHOULD be in a set of criteria but at a minimum I'd say it has to include some expression (as in, expressed to another person) of dissatisfaction with the child's actual body. And I don't think any of the stereotyping stuff should be in any more. And I also don't think that leading questions should count (i.e., if a boy says "I want long hair" and the parent or therapist asks "do you think you might want to be a girl?" that should NOT count as expressing dissatisfaction).

So we are left with: child does not express the wish to physically transition/dissatisfaction with body. Adolescent does express this wish. I think that's at the core of this and there need to be studies of how prevalent this is AMONG THOSE WHO EXPRESS GENDER DYSPHORIA AS ADOLESCENTS.

It is difficult and potentially shaming for her to change identity again.

This is what concerns me the most about all the affirming advice. What if it's just a phase? It's excruciating for adults to admit they got something wrong - indeed many cannot. We can get painted into corners very easily. It's a hundred times worse when you're a child. That's why people often change aspects of their identities rapidly at times like going away to college - the opportunity to do so without judgement and people knowing your history. We shouldn't be painting children into corners.

I struggle to understand why the existence of ROGD need undermine GD. They can co exist as quite separate entities that have some commonalities. I also fail to see why the existence of GD undermine those whose trans identities exist without GD.

Absolutely this, Mrs BeauJ. Absolutely. We keep being told nothing is a binary, it's a wide umbrella, everyone's experience is different etc. So ROGD could well be a temporary reaction to circumstance, and yet there can still be children who do in fact have permanent gender disphoria. We need to make space for all this, without compromising safeguarding and services.

2015 US study found that 4.3% of people 18 and below visit the emergency room for sport-related injuries. This is not at all to say that we should demonise youth sport but rather that we often allow kids to do things that involve risks simply because they want to.

Can you imagine the outcry if clinical trials were conducted in this comparably cavalier manner? Or if people were told that Russian Roulette is an exciting thrill rush for children?

A friend’ daughter has ROGD. It is incredibly worrying and stressful. She is clearly struggling with various things and GD has become her vehicle of expression. She is 16 , we all want her to get to adulthood unmedicated, happy, and reconciled with her sex. Frankly I’m amazed that all girls aren’t choosing to be boys, given that it is presented as a viable option. Who wouldn’t want to opt out of being a teenage girl in our culture ?
“A poisonous lie” . Ffs. Bespin I take it you don’t have daughters.

I'm not sure how relevant this is to ROGD, since it appears to be mainly talking about younger children socially transitioning. But surely the difficulties on going back on something you have presented as an innate part of yourself is going to be very difficult.

Desisting and persisting gender dysphoria after childhood: A qualitative follow-up study

"Given our findings that some girls, who were almost (but not even entirely) living as boys in their childhood years, experienced great trouble when they wanted to return to the female gender role, we believe that parents and caregivers should fully realize the unpredictability of their child’s psychosexual outcome. They may help the child to handle their gender variance in a supportive way, but without taking social steps long before puberty, which are hard to reverse."

Re, finding it hard to change back. This is about selective mutism.

A change of school may be beneficial if the child already speaks outside the school situation, both with adults and children who do not go to the same school. This may indicate a decreased anxiety level, but the child may be currently afraid of how his/her peers in class will react should he/she start talking. This is a perfectly normal reaction as, like adults, children like to present a consistent picture of themselves to the outside world. Also, the child may feel it does not have the social skills to deal with the new situation.

www.selectivemutism.org.uk/info-changing-school-guidelines/

Yes second her work, which is excellent.

Also this by the same author
quillette.com/2017/10/06/misunderstanding-new-kind-gender-dysphoria/

This is an interesting article about ROGD.
Outbreak: On Transgender Teens and Psychic Epidemics

Oh it exists alright. Go into secondary schools and you'd see.

Then come into a primary school and see how the younger siblings (who are already dealing with their own trauma, because yes, ROGD children often have previous family issues) are trying to cope with being told their entire life is a lie. That big sister is now a big brother.

Now see how an entire class of 7yos has heard about it through the whisper network. God knows what nonsense they believe in now and how far it's gone round the school.

I'm a kink shamer and proud!

ROGD is well-observed and self-evident.

Regarding the shitty article in the OP:

Liz Duck-Chong is a bigot.

"fyi: gold star lesbianism is basically 'lesbians who've never touched a man ie. penis' and it's exclusionary and transmisogynistic as heck."

Liz identifies as a lesbian obviously. Liz cites:

"Dr Julia Serano, a researcher with almost two decades of experience in developmental and evolutionary biology"

Julia Serano is, like Liz, a transwoman, who basically devotes their life to attacking science they don't like on the basis that 'I don't like this'

Serano is also known for criticising autogynephilia, and is pretty much the go-to 'impartial source', when you want to say 'everything I don't like is made up.

When a mother complained to Stella Creasy MP about her 11yo daughter being exposed to 11 year old 'girldick' in the shower, Creasy was quick to cite Serano:

twitter.com/TracyXXs/status/975379101761486848
twitter.com/BillBaggins96/status/975680291481276416

It is more than unfortunate for trans people that their media-appointed representatives tend to be people like Serano, Duck-Chong, Aimee Challenor, et al ad nauseam.

If I were a transwoman 'just wanting to shower in peace', I would be repudiating the endless parade of media transwomen who spew constant fetish stuff about rape fantasy, extreme pornography, adult baby/diaper love, cotton ceiling, lesbian shaming, and so on. Surely there must be transwomen who aren't BDSM advocates like Duck-Chong? twitter.com/lizduckchong/status/603369758419877888

I mean are we not capable of saying, just maybe, that that people who use 'cishet' as an insult twitter.com/search?f=tweets&q=from%3Alizduckchong%20cishet&src=typd are not the best source of inspiration on whether, you know, we should be sterilising children with cross-sex hormones, encouraging double mastectomy, and all the rest of the stuff they want to portrary as a morally neutral, or even preferable, choice.

Fuck all these people, quite honestly. Just make them go away, stop giving them media space, stop citing their nonsense articles and 'scientific research'. Just let them masturbate to each other on Tumblr and Twitter and let adults get on with stuff without having to invite adult baby child-rapist-employers on Newsnight as some sort of source of knowledge or wisdom on ANYTHING.

Christ almighty.

thanks!

Ark there is a separate discussion on the Phillips article, it would be good to talk about your points on it there.
I was going to reply here but I fear it might derail the discussion.

It didn’t take long for the guardian to get back on form, did it. I knew it wouldn’t be long before they started all their ‘poor trans’ guff.

Of course because young people are not at all at risk of wishing to surgically alter their bodies due to social contagion

Snapchat body dysmorphia?

I don’t like the Trevor Philips article - he’s taking the issue on to race and ignoring the misogyny of the whole thing- mysoginisitc in itself: “never mind the women affected - what about if we extrapolate this to the ‘Nth degree andnimagine it being used for disabled and BAME rights’ all very well but isn’t this what they call ‘jumping the shark’?

I have worked in my specific field for around 30 years. It used to be very unusual to come across dysphoric children. Now it isn't. This could have something to do with society being more accepting of difference, it could have something to do with new, widely available narratives to explain feeling unhappy and uncomfortable with ones sexed body. My experience leads me to think both are true.
Some of the dysphoric children have experienced persistent symptoms for many years, others encounter them suddenly during puberty. Regardless of this, the vast majority of young people I have worked with have ended up being at peace with their sexed bodies.
I struggle to understand why the existence of ROGD need undermine GD. They can co exist as quite separate entities that have some commonalities. I also fail to see why the existence of GD undermine those whose trans identities exist without GD. The people trying to control the narratives are unbelievably selfish and are potentially damaging opportunities for others leading a fulfilling life.

Reading OP's article, it occured to me that it is highly unusual for random adults suffering from say, gall stones, to be so weirdly focused on other people's children. Even if those children do have gall stones.

Yes this is a contagion. And easy enough to verify. Just find a group of parents and children who are living in an area without ready access to the internet, and without a bunch of trans adults. What's the percentage of trans kids in such a place?

Would that make a good study?

On top of everything else that headline looks like it belongs in a tabloid. It's just so shouty and emotional for a broadsheet.